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  #1  
October 21st, 2009, 10:46 AM
SweetSimpleThings's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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For those who live in the US, can you explain to me (and this is a genuine question, I'm really not sure - and there may be a totally valid explanation!) the difference between universal health care and services like education (ie. public schools), fire/rescue/police, welfare, social support programs like WIC, etc.

I know in past debates on health care, part of the arguement has been that people shouldn't have to pay for other people's care, and yet in so many other ways, your tax dollars do already get pooled to pay for things that are for the common good?

The more I think about it, the more I can't sort out why medical services are different? If you don't mind your taxes being pooled and used for education or police services, why do you mind them being used for health care?
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  #2  
October 21st, 2009, 11:27 AM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
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I've asked the same question repeatedly and never really gotten an answer. People usually just try to find examples of a government program that isn't running efficiently and use that as a straw man to claim the government isn't capable of handling health care.
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  #3  
October 21st, 2009, 11:35 AM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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I've argued this endlessly when the political boards were open. Why is ok to receive government help in some areas (education for all) and not in others (healthcare for all). I have a problem with hypocrisy and to me, this is one of the biggest forms of hypocrisy. I didn't get an answer either.
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  #4  
October 21st, 2009, 11:42 AM
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I will not claim to speak for anyone but myself, but here are my reasons why it is different:

Police/Fire Departments: This is something that, to me, is not even comparable to UHC. These are services that provide protection for the common good. Although each of these services are there for me, it is not something that I feel that I need to "control" or "manage" for my own personal health. If someone has rear ended my car, I am not going to ask my responding police officer where he attended "police" school. My life is not dependant on wheather he knows how my Hyundai works, but having confidence in my Doctor's ability to understand my female reproductive organs is a BIG difference. I want the right to choose who I see for my medical care. Same reason I have NEVER been a part of an HMO, can not stand them and will pay extra for that.

Public schools: I can better see how this can be compared to UHC, but again, I can take my child out of school if I so choose. There are options out there for their education and there is no threat of a "fine" if I do not have them in a public school. I can put them in a correspondance course, put them in a private school, or even claim a religious exemption and make up my OWN coursework. I, personally, do not agree with compulsary (sp?) education, but understand why it is in place.

For me.... the government has NO business trying to control my healthcare. And from all the things I have read about the different proposals (and there have been MANY), I beleive that is where it is heading: Government control of something that should be controled by individuals.
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  #5  
October 21st, 2009, 11:46 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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What I would like to know is that if public education is running so efficiently, then why do so many(not just conservatives) opt for private schools? I never get a very good answer to that except....there isn't enough $$ going to public education. If that is the case and has been the case for years, how will it be different for healthcare?
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  #6  
October 21st, 2009, 11:46 AM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Frugal Mom View Post
I will not claim to speak for anyone but myself, but here are my reasons why it is different:

Police/Fire Departments: This is something that, to me, is not even comparable to UHC. These are services that provide protection for the common good. Although each of these services are there for me, it is not something that I feel that I need to "control" or "manage" for my own personal health. If someone has rear ended my car, I am not going to ask my responding police officer where he attended "police" school. My life is not dependant on wheather he knows how my Hyundai works, but having confidence in my Doctor's ability to understand my female reproductive organs is a BIG difference. I want the right to choose who I see for my medical care. Same reason I have NEVER been a part of an HMO, can not stand them and will pay extra for that.
You realize that police, fire and rescue workers often administer immediate life-saving care, right? If you were in a serious motor vehicle accident, chances are a firefighter/paramedic would be working on you. In my city, all of our ambulances are owned by the fire department.
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  #7  
October 21st, 2009, 11:51 AM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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I've asked this question over and over again myself.

It seems that many people in this country believe that health care is something to be earned not something that is deserved. That's why so many people say things like "I've worked hard to get where I am" or "I've worked hard to get a job that provided health care." I always just want to shake those people. Lots of people work hard. However, not everyone has the opportunity to get a job that provides health care. I know people who work at Walmart who bust their butts working. They are good a loyal employees but because of one thing or another they can't work full time and therefore don't get medical benefits.

I worked as a substitute teacher for quite a while. Someone has to do that job right? It's a job and one I worked hard at but it's also one that doesn't provide medical insurance. It was a job that even required a college education which I also worked hard to earn.
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  #8  
October 21st, 2009, 11:57 AM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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My quote button has disappeared, but Tammy...

Quote:
What I would like to know is that if public education is running so efficiently, then why do so many(not just conservatives) opt for private schools? I never get a very good answer to that except....there isn't enough $$ going to public education. If that is the case and has been the case for years, how will it be different for healthcare?
I think things have changed in education all around and not for the best. I no longer see private schools as being any better than public schools, but that's just my opinion. The ONLY positive difference I can see between the two is smaller class sizes...which a lot of public school teachers would kill for. But a good teacher will make any class size work for her and her students. But, the behaviors of the students are the same for the most part.
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  #9  
October 21st, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
You realize that police, fire and rescue workers often administer immediate life-saving care, right? If you were in a serious motor vehicle accident, chances are a firefighter/paramedic would be working on you. In my city, all of our ambulances are owned by the fire department.
Police do not give any kind of life-saving care here, but as for the fire and paramedics, they do to a certain degree, but there training is more "keep them alive until we get to the hospital" kind of treatment. (And I spent the majority of my teen years at a firehouse, since my brother was the Cheif of the volunteer EMT's).

I know that the rescue people put in alot of time training and studying to be able to do what they do and I respect that, but they are not the same in my mind as a "forced" UHC. They are for emergency situations and I can thankfully say I have yet to need their services. (knocks on wood!) It is not the same as MY being responsible for my own everyday healthcare needs and providing my own health insurance for that need.

For me, it comes down to not wanting the government involved in my day to day healthcare and the decisions involved. I would rather companies did away with "providing" insurance and allowed insurance coverage to be more of an "open market" kind of thing. I want MORE choices, not less. And I believe that having UHC will give me less choices, not more.
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  #10  
October 21st, 2009, 12:08 PM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Frugal Mom View Post
Police do not give any kind of life-saving care here, but as for the fire and paramedics, they do to a certain degree, but there training is more "keep them alive until we get to the hospital" kind of treatment. (And I spent the majority of my teen years at a firehouse, since my brother was the Cheif of the volunteer EMT's).
So if you weren't breathing after an accident and police arrived on scene they'd just basically say "well it sucks to be her" and leave you there until paramedics arrived? That's crazy! Remind me to never visit northern VA! The cops here have some basic paramedic training. They can/will do things like perform CPR. They'd also deliver a baby if they had to.
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  #11  
October 21st, 2009, 12:18 PM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Frugal Mom View Post
It is not the same as MY being responsible for my own everyday healthcare needs and providing my own health insurance for that need.
How are you personally providing your own health insurance? Most people who have health insurance have an employer that covers part of the cost. That employer makes the decision on what provider to use and which group plans will be available.
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  #12  
October 21st, 2009, 12:22 PM
aussiemummy
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Healthcare should be available to everyone, not just those who 'worked hard to get it'. It should be a right, not a privledge.

Where I'm from we have government healthcare and let me tell you - it's wonderful. I know we pay more taxes to have that though. And we pay more on our electric bill to cover if we need an ambulance or not.

Now I'm in America and I can't tell you the amount of people I've seen who need to see a doctor but won't go because they have no insurance and can't afford it. And I also know of people who get treated differently. My ex friend and my future brother in law both went to the hospital with the same illness. Because she had health insurance they took really good care of her whereas my brother in law was sent home with a prescription.

Universal healthcare would bring equal rights for everyone.
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  #13  
October 21st, 2009, 12:58 PM
mswordwiz's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Frugal Mom View Post
Police do not give any kind of life-saving care here, but as for the fire and paramedics, they do to a certain degree, but there training is more "keep them alive until we get to the hospital" kind of treatment. (And I spent the majority of my teen years at a firehouse, since my brother was the Cheif of the volunteer EMT's).
Uhmm, Police will give immediate first aid if they are on the scene before Fire/EMS gets there. No they don't have the super kewl EMS toys, but they do have the basics like gloves, barrier devices for CPR, and clean dressings in a small kit in the trunk along with a disposable blanket. They know enough to buy a few more minutes until folks with more training show up. I do not know of ANY agency that does NOT have CPR/First Aid classes yearly for their officers, in this state that is a mandate for all sworn Peace Officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemummy View Post
Healthcare should be available to everyone, not just those who 'worked hard to get it'. It should be a right, not a privledge.

Where I'm from we have government healthcare and let me tell you - it's wonderful. I know we pay more taxes to have that though. And we pay more on our electric bill to cover if we need an ambulance or not.

Now I'm in America and I can't tell you the amount of people I've seen who need to see a doctor but won't go because they have no insurance and can't afford it. And I also know of people who get treated differently. My ex friend and my future brother in law both went to the hospital with the same illness. Because she had health insurance they took really good care of her whereas my brother in law was sent home with a prescription.

Universal healthcare would bring equal rights for everyone.
I totally agree with this.
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  #14  
October 21st, 2009, 01:08 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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My HARD EARNED tax dollars are being STOLEN from me and are going to put out other peoples fires and I'm TIRED of it! Well you know what, that just encourages people to be careless. Why even bother to avoid touching flame to flammable materials when the Nanny State is going to go and rescue you at no cost?

I say anybody who wants a firefighter can go out and BUY one, and if they don't have enough money for fire insurance than tough ****. It's not my problem. They should have thought about that before the blaze. They should have taken better precautions. Why'd they build their house out of wood instead of brick? Anyone over the age of 3 knows that wood burns and brick does not. I've been alive 27 years and I've never started a fire, so I have zero sympathy when these careless idiots cry to the government with their hands out, demanding that they be provided with a service payed for by responsible folks like me!

I'm tired of Government bureaucrats getting between me and my firefighter, dictating when and where fires can be put out! Do you really trust the GOVERNMENT to make these types of decisions? I don't.

I've been subsidizing irresponsibility for years and I'm not going to take it anymore! My freedom is being taken away from me. In fact, I'm so enraged I'm going to go to town hall meetings and shout angry slogans at politicians, not waiting for or even allowing a response, and if they drag me out for interrupting the meeting I'll complain about how this country is turning into a fascist socialist dictatorship!
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  #15  
October 21st, 2009, 01:13 PM
mswordwiz's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrie View Post

I say anybody who wants a firefighter can go out and BUY one
OK DH goes up on EBAY then.....I think I can get maybe 9.95 for him!

Torrie, thank you I about reopened my incisions reading your post from laughing my ***** off.....
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  #16  
October 21st, 2009, 01:16 PM
irishxrose
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There isn't a difference - at all. Our taxes pay for all sorts of infrastructure such as the police, the fire department, social welfare programs (such as medicare/medicaid, WIC, reduced daycare and free/reduced lunches for school kids, HUD, Pell grants and federal scholarships, etc), the upkeep of our roads and highways, the courts, public jails, public prisons, funding for the care of inmates and mentally ill individuals in state hospitals, community outreach programs, education all the way up to the college level, the military, the national and local parks that we all enjoy, hydroelectricity dams and their upkeep (Hey California, how do you think all those dams were built, like the Hoover Dam, that supply you with all that water and electricity?), water management districts, NASA, funding for programs to help victims of crimes, the EPA SuperFund cleanup program, job training programs, funding for emergency volunteer training, driving programs, sewer and waste management programs, farm subsidies, funding for national security, government-provided defense attorneys, drug addiction programs, AIDS prevention programs, mental illness programs, emergency planning and training programs, public transportation, funding for libraries, local and state management agencies, public utilities commissions/agencies, national monuments, the National Register of Historic Places, regulatory agencies (two examples - alcohol or gambling), and the list goes on. And of course you can't forget about all the tax credits and deductions either.

So how the HELL is health care, for everyone, any different? I'd like some insight on that answer too.

On another note about taxes and how people who want a "small government" and scream whenever they hear the word socialized can utterly destroy a state government's ability to run efficiently... I really enjoy it when people want to initiate TABOR (the Taxpayer's Bill of Rights) in their states when it has caused such a disaster in mine. TABOR was meant to shrink government spending, and allocate revenue to specific places - anything further absolutely HAD to be approved by voters, which often enough were not, even though that revenue for that particular program was crucial and essential to the running of our state government. And now, people want TABOR elsewhere. What? Obviously they haven't taken a good hard look at how TABOR utterly gutted Colorado's revenue.

For example, TABOR is responsible for plummeting teacher pay from 30th to 50th in the nation, reducing funding for schools dramatically (my district was the best in the state and we couldn't afford new textbooks, just to give an example of how disastrous it got thanks to TABOR), pushing up college tuition by 21% and declined funding by 41% for the four years colleges which has caused many to either forego college altogether because they can't get loans or grants and can't afford it or they go to community college which has put an even further strain on the higher education system, Colorado has declined from 23rd to 48th in the nation for women recieving adequate access to prenatal care (because local public health care clinics that depended on public funding were forced to close), plummeting to 50th for vaccination rates due to lack of access and funding (though in 2004 we managed to get 43rd - for comparison, before TABOR Colorado was 24th in the nation), Colorado had to actually SUSPEND one of it's vaccination requirements for school for a period of one year because it was the ONLY state in the country that couldn't afford the vaccine, Colorado is 50th in the entire nation for providing low income children with health insurance and has more children without health insurance than any other state (nationally the number of low income children without health insurance has fallen while in Colorado it has doubled), we used to rank 20th in providing low income adults with health insurance and now are at 48th because the state had to restrict it so much because of lack of revenue (as it was being forced elsewhere as dictated by TABOR) that now you have to be beyond dirt poor to qualify, and Colorado ranks second to last in the percentage of low income children and adults covered by Medicaid. Oh yeah, and let's not forget the horrific roads and highways that are FINALLY being fixed thanks to the federal stimulus package; which without the federal stimulus package would have taken at least 50-100 years to fix everything, because there is hardly any money in our state budget to fix our crumbling roads and bridges. Yeah, what happened in Minnesota could have easily happened here, especially on the elevated portion of I-70.

What TABOR does is restrict, severely, the money that Colorado can allocate to the different services the state and local governments - it becomes a full-on war between services, agencies and departments to get money. And, under TABOR, Colorado had to pay back any revenue that was considered excess - one year, there was $3 Billion in excess revenues, which almost $1 billion of which had to be paid back to taxpayers, even though the state government needed it, and was facing a budget shortfall. Our Corrections system gets more money as a whole thanks to sentencing and court structure and laws - which means that for each dollar that Corrections gets, is another dollar that other critical services need. What's sad is that even for that, our budget is a disaster and Corrections is facing possible mandatory releases for some prisoners because the state of Colorado cannot afford to fund those prisoners' care AND give money to other critical services. TABOR was finally suspended for five years I think in 2005, but we are still feeling the effects - and the economy has made those effects even worse. In Colorado, government employees have had to take mandatory furlough days and even more voluntary furlough days because the state and local governments cannot afford to pay them for their work. The Denver Police Department, the largest in the state, was close to laying off 100 police officers - which they already have a shortfall of officers, so losing 100 would have been disastrous. So, everyone for shrinking government and revenue collection reform, take a good hard look at what it's done to my state. Fact is, we have socialized services that we rely on (I'd say a lot of that infrastructure is crucial) and cannot pay for, directly because of a measure that didn't shrink our government - it shrunk revenue and what the government could pay for that the government absolutely has to HAVE to run properly and efficiently. TABOR is one of the worst ideas anyone could have thought of and actually implemented.

Ahem. Rant over.

ETA - if anyone wants to read exactly how much damage TABOR and initiatives like it can do, here's a report on what it did to Colorado - http://www.cbpp.org/files/10-19-05sfp.pdf

Last edited by irishxrose; October 21st, 2009 at 01:30 PM.
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  #17  
October 21st, 2009, 01:17 PM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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Torrie, you are ...... crazy!!!! lol! Love you girl! And Nay...i think your hubby would be worth more than $9.95. Both of you are hilarious, but you have made some outstanding points....
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  #18  
October 21st, 2009, 01:30 PM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonitaAppleBomb View Post
My quote button has disappeared, but Tammy...



I think things have changed in education all around and not for the best. I no longer see private schools as being any better than public schools, but that's just my opinion. The ONLY positive difference I can see between the two is smaller class sizes...which a lot of public school teachers would kill for. But a good teacher will make any class size work for her and her students. But, the behaviors of the students are the same for the most part.
I'm actually thinking of a debate from probably a couple of weeks ago and there were many of the more liberal minded folks who stated emphatically that they would not send their children to public school but would opt for private. In fact, I think I was probably one of very few posters who was tooting my horn for our local public schools(yup, me the conserv. weird huh?). My issue isn't so much that I don't think health ins. should be affordable for all, because I do, but I do not think that overall the govt. can run it. We've dealt with private ins. and with state, and the current system our state has in place is a mess. So, I'm basing my opinion on our personal experience and the fact that while I think some govt. intervention is inevitable, I would like to see it kept to a minimum. I think that like public schools, there will never be enough $$. I do agree that many private schools are probably no better than public.
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  #19  
October 21st, 2009, 01:30 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post
Obviously they haven't taken a good hard look at how TABOR utterly gutted Colorado's revenue.

For example, TABOR is responsible for plummeting teacher pay from 30th to 50th in the nation, reducing funding for schools dramatically (my district was the best in the state and we couldn't afford new textbooks, just to give an example of how disastrous it got thanks to TABOR), pushing up college tuition by 21% and declined funding by 41% for the four years colleges which has caused many to either forego college altogether because they can't get loans or grants and can't afford it or they go to community college which has put an even further strain on the higher education system, Colorado has declined from 23rd to 48th in the nation for women recieving adequate access to prenatal care (because local public health care clinics that depended on public funding were forced to close), plummeting to 50th for vaccination rates due to lack of access and funding (though in 2004 we managed to get 43rd - for comparison, before TABOR Colorado was 24th in the nation), Colorado had to actually SUSPEND one of it's vaccination requirements for school for a period of one year because it was the ONLY state in the country that couldn't afford the vaccine, Colorado is 50th in the entire nation for providing low income children with health insurance and has more children without health insurance than any other state (nationally the number of low income children without health insurance has fallen while in Colorado it has doubled), we used to rank 20th in providing low income adults with health insurance and now are at 48th because the state had to restrict it so much because of lack of revenue (as it was being forced elsewhere as dictated by TABOR) that now you have to be beyond dirt poor to qualify, and Colorado ranks second to last in the percentage of low income children and adults covered by Medicaid. Oh yeah, and let's not forget the horrific roads and highways that are FINALLY being fixed thanks to the federal stimulus package; which without the federal stimulus package would have taken at least 50-100 years to fix everything, because there is hardly any money in our state budget to fix our crumbling roads and bridges. Yeah, what happened in Minnesota could have easily happened here, especially on the elevated portion of I-70.

What TABOR does is restrict, severely, the money that Colorado can allocate to the different services the state and local governments - it becomes a full-on war between services, agencies and departments to get money. And, under TABOR, Colorado had to pay back any revenue that was considered excess - one year, $3 billion had to be paid back to taxpayers, even though the state government needed it, and was facing a budget shortfall. Our Corrections system gets more money as a whole thanks to sentencing and court structure and laws - which means that for each dollar that Corrections gets, is another dollar that other critical services need. What's sad is that even for that, our budget is a disaster and Corrections is facing possible mandatory releases for some prisoners because the state of Colorado cannot afford to fund those prisoners' care AND give money to other critical services. TABOR was finally suspended for five years I think in 2005, but we are still feeling the effects - and the economy has made those effects even worse. In Colorado, government employees have had to take mandatory furlough days and even more voluntary furlough days because the state and local governments cannot afford to pay them for their work. The Denver Police Department, the largest in the state, was close to laying off 100 police officers - which they already have a shortfall of officers, so losing 100 would have been disastrous. So, everyone for shrinking government and revenue collection reform, take a good hard look at what it's done to my state. Fact is, we have socialized services that we rely on (I'd say a lot of that infrastructure is crucial) and cannot pay for, directly because of a measure that didn't shrink our government - it shrunk revenue and what the government could pay for that the government absolutely has to HAVE to run properly and efficiently. TABOR is one of the worst ideas anyone could have thought of and actually implemented.

Ahem. Rant over.

ETA - if anyone wants to read exactly how much damage TABOR and initiatives like it can do, here's a report on what it did to Colorado - http://www.cbpp.org/files/10-19-05sfp.pdf
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  #20  
October 21st, 2009, 01:56 PM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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@Tammy...I do remember that debate from a few weeks ago and this was my response to it:

Quote:
I teach in public schools, so of course I'd love to send my child to a public school. However, I am picky about the public school that he attends. It has to be a school that has a continuous record of high and exemplary academic achievement. If it is not possible for me to enroll him in a public school such as the one I described, then I may as well send him to private school and pay for the type of quality education I want him to have. I have learned that all private schools are not exemplary either, so I'd definitely do my research on those as well.
Speaking for me, it would be hypocritical to automatically put my son in a private school while I'm teaching in public. The message that would send would be horrible on my part. But I do believe there are some institutions, both public and private, where our children can receive a quality education. We as parents must be willing to do the research and I can't imagine not doing the research on this..actually I've already researched the best school for him and made my decision..and it just happens to be public. And I cannot wait because daycare is KILLING me! ughh..but that's another thread.
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