Log In Sign Up

Should Gays and Lesbians Be Allowed?


Forum: Heated Debates

Notices

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to [email protected].

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Heated Debates LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #1  
July 5th, 2006, 12:45 AM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 717
Um...why wouldn't they? What does their sexual preference have to do with defending our country? This I've never understood... I say YES, they should be allowed.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
July 5th, 2006, 03:42 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Apparently a common argument against is that it would "Damage unit coherency". Which basically means they want to appease homophobes.
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #3  
July 5th, 2006, 03:59 AM
syncere
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think it they should allow gays/lesbians their sexual preference shouldnt matter.. But, Im assuming it would be a 'morale' issue for the homophobes and that just wouldnt fly being as they are all about morale...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
July 5th, 2006, 07:09 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
They are allowed. They just have to keep their orientation a secret or they'll get kicked out. There are actually a few reasons for it and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can fight. For one thing, in the Navy/Coast Guard for example there are long on boat deployments. Many people would not be comfortable with having a homosexual on board, and, yes, morale is extremely important to/in the military. For another, there is the safety of the homosexuals themselves. Sometimes people fall off boats and can't be saved. It's "always" an accident. Sometimes it may not truly be one. Yes, that's catering to homophobes, but, again, morale is very important.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #5  
July 5th, 2006, 07:13 AM
syncere
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think thats what watermama meant about being "allowed" in the military like being able to be openly gay or lesbian in the military.. Its sad when you have to keep something like that bottled inside..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
July 5th, 2006, 07:16 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
I agree, but I also understand the military's reasoning, particularly in regards to safety for the homosexual person. It sucks that people would be that anti-gay people that they would resort to harming someone just because they are gay or lesbian, but unfortunately we all know it happens.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #7  
July 5th, 2006, 07:22 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,496
I don't like the policy, but, having toured a submarine, I can't see how they can let a homosexual on board when they already have policies against women. It seems like a "whatif" they can't really afford to take (and, from what I could tell, there isn't enough room for split accomidations). Of course, not every woman or homosexual will become attracted or a hindrance to someone else on board, but it seems like a chance not even I would want to take if in that position.
__________________
taking jm breaks if you don't see me around much
Reply With Quote
  #8  
July 5th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
They are allowed. They just have to keep their orientation a secret or they'll get kicked out. There are actually a few reasons for it and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can fight. For one thing, in the Navy/Coast Guard for example there are long on boat deployments. Many people would not be comfortable with having a homosexual on board, and, yes, morale is extremely important to/in the military. For another, there is the safety of the homosexuals themselves. Sometimes people fall off boats and can't be saved. It's "always" an accident. Sometimes it may not truly be one. Yes, that's catering to homophobes, but, again, morale is very important.[/b]
I think if the military actually tried to pursue some of these cases rather than use the copout answer of "protecting the gays", things might actually start to change. and how egotistical is it of heteros to think every gay person is "after them". Whatever. They're people just like us...and should have the right to not only fight for our country but to also do it by being themselves.
__________________
~Amber~

Reply With Quote
  #9  
July 5th, 2006, 09:19 AM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 717
It scares me to think that you have to protect yourself from your own countrymen. How can you fight for your country if here you are killing your own men/women because they are gay?? Sorry....I don't want them (the killers...ppl who abuse gays in the military) to stand for ME and MY country. If they are so pathetic as to cause these "accidents" are they the same ppl who would stoop to the same level of those who would rape the enemy? Such as women and children? It's certainly not unheard of.
It just sickens me. Yay yay for the military who kills their own and rapes women and children. Gross.

And yes, I KNOW the majority of military ppl are GOOD WHOLESOME PPL, with GOOD VALUES who would NEVER do this. *pats them on the back*

I'm talking about the "others" .....and yea, they DESERVE the [email protected]#n quotation marks because they sure aren't on the same level of "humanity" as I am.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
July 5th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Angelo, Texas
Posts: 3,274
Quote:
and how egotistical is it of heteros to think every gay person is "after them".[/b]
I was just about to say the same thing. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that they want to hook up with everyone of the same sex. Having a gay male friend I have learned a lot. Most of the time they find straight guys very disgusting.
Back to the question at hand, I think that they should have the same rights as every other American wanting to fight for their country. I see in no way how their sexual preference should make a difference in how well they can protect and serve. Yes, I agree there are homophobes that take it to the extreme, so maybe they are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to serve instead of people who just have a different sexual preference. I mean after all, gay people are already limited on what they can and cannot do.
Amanda
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
July 5th, 2006, 10:06 AM
Chunky Monkey's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sylvania Township, Ohio
Posts: 22,176
I have many gay/lesbian friends and let me tell you they are the same inside as anyone else. And they are just as patriotic.
If the military feels uncomfortable with them because of long deployments, then they don't actually have to be deployed. A lot of servicepeople stay stateside. At least we would know there are people defending our homeland as well as people overseas or doing their tours of duty.
__________________
Thank you KimberlyD0 for my absolutely beautiful siggy!


Reply With Quote
  #12  
July 5th, 2006, 10:33 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
Quote:
If the military feels uncomfortable with them because of long deployments, then they don't actually have to be deployed. A lot of servicepeople stay stateside. At least we would know there are people defending our homeland as well as people overseas or doing their tours of duty.[/b]
That can actually hinder their career path, though. You move up in ranks faster and easier if you do take deployments. My friend's husband needed a deployable location for his next (now current) duty station to advance from E-6 to E-7 which he should do in the next year or so. His current duty station/ship is 4 months in/4 months out. Had he opted for a non-deployable location this time around he would likely not reach E-7 for 3 or 4 more years.

It does seem crazy that the US Government was EOE rules which includes sexual orientation, yet the military, run by the US government, doesn't have to abide by those rules and be "equal" in any way. It is also sad that the few (and I do believe it is very few) homophobes are able to make enough trouble for gays that they wouldn't be allowed to serve if they are out. The vast majority of military people I am sure wouldn't have a problem. I don't know any homosexual who would really "go for" a straight person any more than a heterosexual who would "go for" a gay person (with the exception of the ones who think they can "fix" homosexuals). Why waste your time, you know.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #13  
July 5th, 2006, 10:40 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
Quote:
If the military feels uncomfortable with them because of long deployments, then they don't actually have to be deployed. A lot of servicepeople stay stateside. At least we would know there are people defending our homeland as well as people overseas or doing their tours of duty.[/b]
That can actually hinder their career path, though. You move up in ranks faster and easier if you do take deployments. My friend's husband needed a deployable location for his next (now current) duty station to advance from E-6 to E-7 which he should do in the next year or so. His current duty station/ship is 4 months in/4 months out. Had he opted for a non-deployable location this time around he would likely not reach E-7 for 3 or 4 more years.

It does seem crazy that the US Government was EOE rules which includes sexual orientation, yet the military, run by the US government, doesn't have to abide by those rules and be "equal" in any way. It is also sad that the few (and I do believe it is very few) homophobes are able to make enough trouble for gays that they wouldn't be allowed to serve if they are out. The vast majority of military people I am sure wouldn't have a problem. I don't know any homosexual who would really "go for" a straight person any more than a heterosexual who would "go for" a gay person (with the exception of the ones who think they can "fix" homosexuals). Why waste your time, you know.
[/b]
Okay, so not letting them deploy will hinder their career path. Understood. And how does getting kicked out of the military for being gay NOT hinder their career path?? Just an observation.
__________________
~Amber~

Reply With Quote
  #14  
July 5th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
Quote:
Okay, so not letting them deploy will hinder their career path. Understood. And how does getting kicked out of the military for being gay NOT hinder their career path?? Just an observation.[/b]
That's where the problem lies. As long as they keep their orientation a secret and no one asks and they don't tell they won't get kicked out and can become a 4 star general or admiral or whatever. It is quite unfair that they have to keep it a secret, though. I'm definitey not denying that. It's discrimination pure and simple, that is true. It is very unfortunate that the military does end up catering to the few homophobes who might cause trouble for the homosexuals. I've often wondered, though, why wouldn't a lesbian be allowed on a ship of men. Wouldn't she look at the men the same as the (heterosexual) men look at each other? How about on ships that are mixed (are there any currently? I know there have been in the past as trials but I'm not sure how those turned out). Wouldn't the potential (sexual) problems be them same hetero woman to hetero man as homo woman to woman/man to man? Of course abuse and murder by homophobes would be an entirely separate issue than sexual possibilities and I really think those cases should be fully investigated and those who do it should be punished severely.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #15  
July 5th, 2006, 10:59 AM
syncere
Guest
Posts: n/a
It more than likely wouldnt hinder your career path outside of the military..In the military like she said it can slow you down in rank advancement if you do not get deployed depending on the branch. If you are kicked out of the military it doesnt say on your discharge papers "kicked out for being a homosexual." It is a general discharge the site some reason for it but in no way shape or form does it mention being gay.. Failure to adapt or something like that.. If you get out of the military with a general discharge you have no problems finding work.. They dont go into great detail to see why you were discharged.. All they look for is honorable, general, or dishonorable discharge..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
July 5th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
I was assuming you meant career path within the military since if they are kicked out they have no military career path. If you meant out of the military (after being kicked out) what syncere said is exactly right. When my sister was in basic training (Air Force) there was a girl who was having a lot of trouble with it and started telling everyone she was a lesbian. She was kicked out of the military and her papers were for a general discharge. No one knew if she really was a lesbian or not or if she just wanted out.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #17  
July 5th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 28,853
Oops. Double Post.
__________________


~Heather, wife to Jamie (15 years; June 5, 1998) and mom to
Ani - 14 (February 15, 2000), Cameron - 12 (October 3, 2001),
Fritz - 7 (July 11, 2006), and Adrian - 5 (June 19, 2008)
Smaller on the Outside

Reply With Quote
  #18  
July 5th, 2006, 12:25 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yep ~ gays should be allowed to serve..

Quote:
I have many gay/lesbian friends and let me tell you they are the same inside as anyone else. And they are just as patriotic.
If the military feels uncomfortable with them because of long deployments, then they don't actually have to be deployed. A lot of servicepeople stay stateside. At least we would know there are people defending our homeland as well as people overseas or doing their tours of duty.[/b]
Long deployments? So is masturbating off limits too?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
July 5th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: in my house
Posts: 7,374
The "don't ask, don't tell" policy is not in place to protect the lives or safety of the militarys homosexual members. The policy covers all sexual orientation, not just homosexuality. It is an extension of the sexual harassment policy, and simply means in the workplace, sexual orientation should not be discussed.

I don't really see it as any different than a job in the civilian world. If you were to go to work tomorrow and you supervisor were to approach you and say "(insert name), are you gay or straight?", that would be inappropriate and irrelevant to your position, just as it would be for you to walk to your coworker and discuss your sexuality.

Homosexuality is NOT uncommon in the military! When I was in basic training there were two lesbians in my flight (open and obvious), their limitations were simply that they could not tell people and they could not be asked. Several girls went to the TI and told him that she was gay and they were uncomfortable, those girls got in a lot of trouble. My suitemate while stationed in NM was a very open and obvious lesbian, at the workplace she was simply A1C (last name....I don't want to use her name). In my shop there was another man, VERY flamboyant, VERY obvious (he even dressed in drag to attend a bachelorette party with us one time ) and he just another co-worker on the job.

It is often used to get out of the military, even by straight members who decide they want an out. If you break the policy and you "tell" then often a general discharge is granted. If someone "asks" then they will suffer repurcussions and punished. I knew of a couple of people that brought their sexuality to their supervisors so that they could be discharged, and in tech school I knew of a straight girl who lied and said she was gay to get out.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #20  
July 5th, 2006, 01:16 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
I wish it didn't have to be in the cloest..

Stacey ~ I have exact stories like yours from just being in just Sea Cadets.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:50 AM.