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Ensoulment, abortion, and the afterlife...


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  #1  
July 5th, 2006, 11:39 AM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Posts: 1,779
I posted this on the Abortion Debate board as well, but thought it might get a more varied response here...


<div align="center">***</div>


I was raised in a very conservative Christian home, and both of my parents were very anti-abortion. I'm not religious anymore, and currently consider myself Agnostic w/ Pagan leanings.

Anyway, I know this is a cross between an abortion debate and a religion debate, but I had a series of questions for Christian pro-lifers specifically...

-Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful?

-If you believe an embryo/fetus has a soul, where do you believe these souls go if they die before birth?

-Is life on earth more important, or where you spend eternity?

---

If you believe God knows the future, then doesn't he know the outcome of a pregnancy ahead of time?

If a pregnancy is going to end in abortion, stillbirth, or miscarriage...why would he 'send a soul'?

If that embryo/fetus had been born, into today's world, what are the chances of that child not being 'Heaven bound" in the end?

If you look at it that way, doesn't abortion in a sense guarentee a soul that may have otherwise gone to Hell a place in Heaven?

Is it possible that there is some complex wisdom behind God knowingly sending a soul that will be aborted?

Whether abortion is right or wrong, it will affect a woman for the rest of her life; we learn from every experience and decision. If it's a sin, and there is a God to answer to, she's the one who carries that burden.

Have you ever been frustrated when you're running late and you hit every red light? My mom used to suggest that we should trust the wisdom in such things, because who knows if it was that red light that allowed you to avoid an accident up ahead? Everything happens for a reason.

A woman who chooses abortion is altering her path in life; who knows where that new path will lead. Perhaps her experience will change her spiritually, and she'll 'find Christ'...or, perhaps she's already a Christian. Perhaps not having a baby now will change her course in such a way that she escapes an abusive relationship...or get's to go to college and becomes a nurse or teacher or some other career where she will impact the lives of others for the better.

The universe works in mysterious ways, and you just never know why things happen the way they do.

Jen
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  #2  
July 5th, 2006, 08:47 PM
brittbratt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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-Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful? Of course

-If you believe an embryo/fetus has a soul, where do you believe these souls go if they die before birth? Back to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus

-Is life on earth more important, or where you spend eternity? Well I believe we are sent to this earth to recieve a body and to prove to Heavenly Father that we are worthy to live in his presence after we die, life on earth is just a probationary state but necessary for our salvation. Denying Heavenly Fathers children this priveledge is terrible.

---

If you believe God knows the future, then doesn't he know the outcome of a pregnancy ahead of time? yes probably, but everyone has free agency, its just a matter of if you make the right decisions. He isnt going to not let someone get pregnant because he knows that person will abort the baby. Even though he disapproves, we were all put on this earth with the expectation of doing the wrong things, he just hopes we learn to do what is right. Again our earthy existance is just a probationary state.

If a pregnancy is going to end in abortion, stillbirth, or miscarriage...why would he 'send a soul'? Because everyone needs to recieve a body. I believe that if a baby is born still, it needed to receive a body but its purpose in life was more important in heaven than it was on earth.

If that embryo/fetus had been born, into today's world, what are the chances of that child not being 'Heaven bound" in the end? well any child that dies before the age of accountablility automatically goes to heaven. Children are innocent. The child, had it been able to grow up, would have had a good chance of not following Gods commandments and sinning or what not. He/she would have had to "prove" themselves worthy of returning to Heavenly Fathers presence. Thats why when a baby or child dies, even though it is terribly heartbreaking, we atleast know they are infact in heaven, and they didnt have to suffer in this world. I have heard that if we truely knew what Heaven was like we would kill ourselves to get there! (but not recommended for this is a sin )

If you look at it that way, doesn't abortion in a sense guarentee a soul that may have otherwise gone to Hell a place in Heaven? Yes but they also didnt get to live in this probationary state. Before this earth was created Heveanly Fether and Jesus made a plan. There plan was that they would create this earth and that we would all get to be born with physical bodies, but we promised Heavenly Father that we would come to this earth to prove ourselves to him and that we would obey the commandments. If you are alive on this earth you made that covenant with Heavenly Father, thats why you are here. A child that is aborted also made that promise to come to earth and recieve a body and prove himself. Unfortunately sometimes they dont make it that far. I dont know though if they get a second chance or not.

Is it possible that there is some complex wisdom behind God knowingly sending a soul that will be aborted? God has a plan for everything, sometimes we just dont understand what or why.

I hope I answered your questions!
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  #3  
July 8th, 2006, 07:49 AM
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I've been thinking about this post for a long time, and I think it is just another way to rationalize. I don't know the answer to a lot of your questions. I don't know if God plans or knows the outcome of every situation. I don't know why God "lets" some people do evil against others. I don't know exactly when God "sends a soul" to a fetus. I leave some things up to faith, which is very hard to do sometimes. The only thing I know is that God lets people choose what they do, and that there are definitely right and wrong choices.

The argument that "If God lets me do it, then He must think it's ok, right" takes personal responsibility right out of the picture. If someone wants to murder someone else, or rob someone else, and they go and do it, is God responsible for letting that happen? And saying that aborting your baby is a big favor to them, because they go straight to Heaven is unbelievable. True God "allowed" abortions to be invented, but he also allowed guns, concentration camps and gas chambers to be invented. Should we be using them to kill millions of people? Why not, if God doesn't want us to do it, He can always stop us. Plus, we might be doing people a favor and sending them on to Heaven, and who wouldn't want to be on the fast-track to Heaven.

These arguments sound like one big huge rationalization to make a woman feel good about doing whatever she wants, despite the fact that murder is wrong.

I have a question or two myself--
Why would God allow a woman to get pregnant in the first place if the baby wasn't meant to be here?
Who are we as humans, who may only be looking at a small piece of the big picture, to decide who lives or dies, and what makes a life a worthwhile vs. worthless?
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  #4  
July 8th, 2006, 12:56 PM
mrobinson
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What if God isn't the ulitmate answer to everything? What if it's possible that nature is partly responsible for things? People get it in their head that right and wrong are absolute. What if it's not that simple?

Quote:
Why would God allow a woman to get pregnant in the first place if the baby wasn't meant to be here?[/b]
What if it's the simple act of sex that allows a woman to get pregnant and we choose to believe that the soul is automatically there?

Quote:
Who are we as humans, who may only be looking at a small piece of the big picture, to decide who lives or dies, and what makes a life a worthwhile vs. worthless?[/b]
What if we as humans assume we think something is worthless when it isn't? We assume women who have abortions assume the baby is worthless. What if that's the incorrect logic? What if that woman put lots of thought into the quality of life for that child and knew abortion was the best decision?

We also assume this in war. We kill our enemies with the belief "the cause" is worth it. We may have killed one of the best human beings ever but we thought the cause of the war was worth the sacrific.
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  #5  
July 8th, 2006, 02:00 PM
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Like I said before, whose job is it to judge whether another's quality of life is good or bad? What's so wrong with being "poor" or "underprivileged?" If it's that bad, why don't all poor people just do themselves a favor and kill themselves and put themselves out of their misery? I think it's because life is precious and worth living, even if it's not a "great" life according to someone else. On another thread I was eviscerated for commenting on the clothing some people choose to wear to church--why is that worse than judging whether the life SOMEONE else will lead is worthwhile or not and ending it before it begins? Why do WOMEN have that privilege over their own children, and not over someone else that they think lives a "bad" life?

I may be wrong about a lot of things (like assuming that God even exists at all) but that's the path I have chosen--a judgement call on my part, if you will. Even so, I don't toy with life and death, because that right belongs to GOD.
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  #6  
July 8th, 2006, 02:08 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Why do WOMEN have that privilege over their own children, and not over someone else that they think lives a "bad" life?[/b]
Because that might be what God and nature intended.
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  #7  
July 8th, 2006, 06:32 PM
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Maybe nature does intend it that it way, but I think God's commandment to not murder is a clear indication that it abortion wrong according to Him. It doesn't say Thou shalt not murder (except in the cases of unwanted pregnancy.).
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  #8  
July 9th, 2006, 05:48 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Maybe nature does intend it that it way, but I think God's commandment to not murder is a clear indication that it abortion wrong according to Him. It doesn't say Thou shalt not murder (except in the cases of unwanted pregnancy.).[/b]
You assume a fetus is human?
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  #9  
July 9th, 2006, 07:16 PM
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If the mother was human and the father was also human, then yes, a fetus is human. What else could it be? (I know, I know, it's really just a piece of "tissue" like a tumor or mole or any other irritating growth that happens to people.)
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  #10  
July 9th, 2006, 07:20 PM
mrobinson
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If the mother was human and the father was also human, then yes, a fetus is human. What else could it be? (I know, I know, it's really just a piece of "tissue" like a tumor or mole or any other irritating growth that happens to people.)[/b]
again, you assume it's life.. I'm done attempting to even explain it if you want to debate in this matter.
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  #11  
July 9th, 2006, 10:08 PM
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Exactly. I can see this debate is going nowhere.
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  #12  
July 13th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
And saying that aborting your baby is a big favor to them, because they go straight to Heaven is unbelievable. True God "allowed" abortions to be invented, but he also allowed guns, concentration camps and gas chambers to be invented. Should we be using them to kill millions of people? Why not, if God doesn't want us to do it, He can always stop us. Plus, we might be doing people a favor and sending them on to Heaven, and who wouldn't want to be on the fast-track to Heaven.[/b]
The difference I think in the case of abortion though is that if the fetus does have a soul, it certainly hasn't sinned so it seems certain that if there is a soul, it would go right back to God. And, while abortion has likely existed nearly as long as humans have (although by more primitive means like herbs, heat, and abdominal trauma) the Bible doesn't address it specifically, nor does it say when ensoulment happens. The closest thing, IMO is referrence to 'breath of life', and of course a fetus doesn't breath until birth.

Quote:
Why would God allow a woman to get pregnant in the first place if the baby wasn't meant to be here?[/b]
I'm sure many women who have miscarried or given birth to a stillborn ask that same question.

Jen
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  #13  
July 14th, 2006, 05:25 AM
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I'm sorry, but an abortion, that a WOMAN chooses cannot even be compared to a miscarriage, which is not her choice. This comparison makes me so furious that I probably will not be able to answer rationally. To compare the accidental loss of a pregnancy to one that a woman takes it upon herself to end is like comparing the death of a child in a car crash to one that is murdered. I mean, come on!!! Get real!! How can those two be equal?? If you don't get it, I guess you just don't get it--some people are willing to make ANY selfish, thoughtless argument at all to rationalize what they want to do just because they want it.

I am so sick of hearing how traumatic abortion is, and how it's a loss, well, when you kill your own child, of course it's a loss. But don't go comparing yourself to those of us who have REALLY had losses that we did NOTHING to bring about. I've got no sympathy at all--NONE! Sometimes things go wrong in pregnancy, but to compare the loss of a woman who did nothing wrong, with the loss of a woman who brought it all on herself...please spare me!

This kind of pointless arguing is the exact reason I usually stay away from abortion threads, and why I won't be coming back to this one. This just takes up too much of my time and energy, for no reason at all. I used to be pro-choice (you know, 'Keep your laws off my body' and all that crap), and at some point I grew up and re-thought the whole thing. I guess I'll just never understand how a woman can be so selfish as to murder her own flesh and blood. Women are given the blessed responsibility of nurturing and bringing forth life out of our bodies and I don't see how any woman can just dismiss that responsibility by saying a BABY is a like a tumor and needs to be cut out. I just don't get it--I guess I'm just a starry-eyed idealist, but hearing all this selfishness is really sad.
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  #14  
July 15th, 2006, 08:54 PM
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Anyway, I know this is a cross between an abortion debate and a religion debate, but I had a series of questions for Christian pro-lifers specifically... I am pro-life, but wouldn't typically call myself a Christian, but I thought I would answer anyway....I had to think a lot before posting.

-Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful? Generally...but it doesn't mean I believe God "interferes" in my day to day life...like interceding to prevent bad or plopping down miracles, etc.

-If you believe an embryo/fetus has a soul, where do you believe these souls go if they die before birth? Don't know...I could never suppose to have the answer to that.

-Is life on earth more important, or where you spend eternity? I think there is neither more important. Both matter greatly

---

If you believe God knows the future, then doesn't he know the outcome of a pregnancy ahead of time? Yes- but it doesn't mean he interferes...that is why we have free will.

If a pregnancy is going to end in abortion, stillbirth, or miscarriage...why would he 'send a soul'? I think how the pg will end has nothing to do with it. If a soul belongs to each child, it belongs to them regardless of what happens during a pg.... To believe differently would be to believe that your baby at 40 wks had no soul until delivered...and even then, when in delivery should "ensuolment" occur, after their first breath & if they died in delivery, then God didn't "bother" with a soul...that's a weird perception. If it happens before birth..when? 35wks, 30wks, 20wks, 12wks, ????? How would you decide when you think the baby doesn't yet have a soul?

and BTW - you may want to talk about these things - but if you have never suffered a loss through mc or stillbirth I suppose I can see why you might not see how INCREDIBLY insensitive a lot of these questions are worded for a board (meaning JM) with membership all about "mommies" when nearly 25% have probably suffered some level of this type of loss. Do you know how that might sound for someone like me for you to infer that perhaps my babies were "soulless"? Did it occur to you when you asked it?

If that embryo/fetus had been born, into today's world, what are the chances of that child not being 'Heaven bound" in the end? Don't know - I don't set around checking out other people's lives & evaluating who I think is/isn't going to heaven (which would be the type of research one might due to calculate an average of how many babies "might" be heaven bound).

If you look at it that way, doesn't abortion in a sense guarentee a soul that may have otherwise gone to Hell a place in Heaven? It guarantees that a child that may have graced the world & filled a longing woman's arms will never do so.

Is it possible that there is some complex wisdom behind God knowingly sending a soul that will be aborted? No - God doesn't "send a soul to be aborted". A woman gets pg & I believe there is automatically a soul, what she does is up to her after that - it has nothing to do with "God's divine plan".

Whether abortion is right or wrong, it will affect a woman for the rest of her life; we learn from every experience and decision. If it's a sin, and there is a God to answer to, she's the one who carries that burden. - Right

Have you ever been frustrated when you're running late and you hit every red light? My mom used to suggest that we should trust the wisdom in such things, because who knows if it was that red light that allowed you to avoid an accident up ahead? Everything happens for a reason.

- You may believe that but I don't. I think we are capable of making a reason out of everything & that it is in our best interest to do so - but to say there is a reason in everything tells me that you may not have suffered the same fates others have endured. A woman in my town lost NINE children last year to an explosion in their water heater. She is a lovely woman - a great mom & adored her children - please go tell her there was a good reason for that....or that it will all come out in the wash as soon as she finds hte "divine wisdom" in it. That really doesn't hold an ounce of water with me. It is faulty reasoning we use to be patient when the light turns red....not useful erasoning when you are actually tlaking about HUGE things that are eating at your core.

A woman who chooses abortion is altering her path in life; who knows where that new path will lead. Perhaps her experience will change her spiritually, and she'll 'find Christ'...or, perhaps she's already a Christian. Perhaps not having a baby now will change her course in such a way that she escapes an abusive relationship...or get's to go to college and becomes a nurse or teacher or some other career where she will impact the lives of others for the better. --- My losses have changed things in my life - but not really for the better. After I dragged myself up out of the s**t - I have forced myself to find new strength & a new path - but I was a good person before - maybe even kinder, softer, gentler & certainly more "Christian"...but now I am on an entirely different path & although I have found peace in many many ways...I don't think the mc's "helped" me as it seems you have phrased such things can do. I guess in this life you either fight or die. Sometimes fighting gets you to a place where you are stronger & a little bit more aware & ready for the next fight & sometimes you just get your ***** kicked, or worse. I think it has more to do with the individual spirit about what you end up doing after hte fact. Some people will come around to a spiritual path, some will end up alcoholics, I don't blame God for any of it & I don't blame those that brake under the stress of it all - it's life. It isn't meant to be a hand holding session from God, directing our lives to that "perfect path" whatever it takes, whether it's a few unwanted pg's or even if it means killing off the babies in my womb. I really do get extremely tired of the "God's will" thing - it's called free will - we all have it - and it's called nature. God didn't send my babies to die, I got pg & nature didn't work out....and it was my free will to try again & again a kick in the pants. I don't blame God - I have learned to not rely on him fo rhte "happy ending". I think the same in all things now including abortion - to act as though God has a hand in it is simply ridiculous fro my perceptions. God didn't send any babies to be aborted, their mom's got pregnant & ended their lives. I will not debate if it is life, cells dividing, hearts beating & all necessary parts functioning are life to me. If you have some other definition of what constitutes life - good - that is your deal. I have come to a place recently that I take the spider out of my home in a cup, because I literally believe "who am I to say it's life doesn't matter just because it was bothering me?". So many argue when life begins, the meanig of it all, etc. It doesn't really matter....I know what it means to me & you know what it means to you. I will never be able to relate to you the intricacies of what the "definition of life" is.
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  #15  
July 15th, 2006, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Anyway, I know this is a cross between an abortion debate and a religion debate, but I had a series of questions for Christian pro-lifers specifically... I am pro-life, but wouldn't typically call myself a Christian, but I thought I would answer anyway....I had to think a lot before posting.

-Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful? Generally...but it doesn't mean I believe God "interferes" in my day to day life...like interceding to prevent bad or plopping down miracles, etc.

-If you believe an embryo/fetus has a soul, where do you believe these souls go if they die before birth? Don't know...I could never suppose to have the answer to that.

-Is life on earth more important, or where you spend eternity? I think there is neither more important. Both matter greatly

---

If you believe God knows the future, then doesn't he know the outcome of a pregnancy ahead of time? Yes- but it doesn't mean he interferes...that is why we have free will.

If a pregnancy is going to end in abortion, stillbirth, or miscarriage...why would he 'send a soul'? I think how the pg will end has nothing to do with it. If a soul belongs to each child, it belongs to them regardless of what happens during a pg.... To believe differently would be to believe that your baby at 40 wks had no soul until delivered...and even then, when in delivery should "ensuolment" occur, after their first breath & if they died in delivery, then God didn't "bother" with a soul...that's a weird perception. If it happens before birth..when? 35wks, 30wks, 20wks, 12wks, ????? How would you decide when you think the baby doesn't yet have a soul?

and BTW - you may want to talk about these things - but if you have never suffered a loss through mc or stillbirth I suppose I can see why you might not see how INCREDIBLY insensitive a lot of these questions are worded for a board (meaning JM) with membership all about "mommies" when nearly 25% have probably suffered some level of this type of loss. Do you know how that might sound for someone like me for you to infer that perhaps my babies were "soulless"? Did it occur to you when you asked it?

If that embryo/fetus had been born, into today's world, what are the chances of that child not being 'Heaven bound" in the end? Don't know - I don't set around checking out other people's lives & evaluating who I think is/isn't going to heaven (which would be the type of research one might due to calculate an average of how many babies "might" be heaven bound).

If you look at it that way, doesn't abortion in a sense guarentee a soul that may have otherwise gone to Hell a place in Heaven? It guarantees that a child that may have graced the world & filled a longing woman's arms will never do so.

Is it possible that there is some complex wisdom behind God knowingly sending a soul that will be aborted? No - God doesn't "send a soul to be aborted". A woman gets pg & I believe there is automatically a soul, what she does is up to her after that - it has nothing to do with "God's divine plan".

Whether abortion is right or wrong, it will affect a woman for the rest of her life; we learn from every experience and decision. If it's a sin, and there is a God to answer to, she's the one who carries that burden. - Right

Have you ever been frustrated when you're running late and you hit every red light? My mom used to suggest that we should trust the wisdom in such things, because who knows if it was that red light that allowed you to avoid an accident up ahead? Everything happens for a reason.

- You may believe that but I don't. I think we are capable of making a reason out of everything & that it is in our best interest to do so - but to say there is a reason in everything tells me that you may not have suffered the same fates others have endured. A woman in my town lost NINE children last year to an explosion in their water heater. She is a lovely woman - a great mom & adored her children - please go tell her there was a good reason for that....or that it will all come out in the wash as soon as she finds hte "divine wisdom" in it. That really doesn't hold an ounce of water with me. It is faulty reasoning we use to be patient when the light turns red....not useful erasoning when you are actually tlaking about HUGE things that are eating at your core.

A woman who chooses abortion is altering her path in life; who knows where that new path will lead. Perhaps her experience will change her spiritually, and she'll 'find Christ'...or, perhaps she's already a Christian. Perhaps not having a baby now will change her course in such a way that she escapes an abusive relationship...or get's to go to college and becomes a nurse or teacher or some other career where she will impact the lives of others for the better. --- My losses have changed things in my life - but not really for the better. After I dragged myself up out of the s**t - I have forced myself to find new strength & a new path - but I was a good person before - maybe even kinder, softer, gentler & certainly more "Christian"...but now I am on an entirely different path & although I have found peace in many many ways...I don't think the mc's "helped" me as it seems you have phrased such things can do. I guess in this life you either fight or die. Sometimes fighting gets you to a place where you are stronger & a little bit more aware & ready for the next fight & sometimes you just get your ***** kicked, or worse. I think it has more to do with the individual spirit about what you end up doing after hte fact. Some people will come around to a spiritual path, some will end up alcoholics, I don't blame God for any of it & I don't blame those that brake under the stress of it all - it's life. It isn't meant to be a hand holding session from God, directing our lives to that "perfect path" whatever it takes, whether it's a few unwanted pg's or even if it means killing off the babies in my womb. I really do get extremely tired of the "God's will" thing - it's called free will - we all have it - and it's called nature. God didn't send my babies to die, I got pg & nature didn't work out....and it was my free will to try again & again a kick in the pants. I don't blame God - I have learned to not rely on him fo rhte "happy ending". I think the same in all things now including abortion - to act as though God has a hand in it is simply ridiculous fro my perceptions. God didn't send any babies to be aborted, their mom's got pregnant & ended their lives. I will not debate if it is life, cells dividing, hearts beating & all necessary parts functioning are life to me. If you have some other definition of what constitutes life - good - that is your deal. I have come to a place recently that I take the spider out of my home in a cup, because I literally believe "who am I to say it's life doesn't matter just because it was bothering me?". So many argue when life begins, the meanig of it all, etc. It doesn't really matter....I know what it means to me & you know what it means to you. I will never be able to relate to you the intricacies of what the "definition of life" is.[/b]
I just wanted to say, that the most beautifully written, well thought out post I have read on here. It just made sense, and it caused me to rethink a lot of my views...Thank you. I agree with everything you said, and have nothing to add.
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  #17  
July 16th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I'm sorry, but an abortion, that a WOMAN chooses cannot even be compared to a miscarriage, which is not her choice. This comparison makes me so furious that I probably will not be able to answer rationally. To compare the accidental loss of a pregnancy to one that a woman takes it upon herself to end is like comparing the death of a child in a car crash to one that is murdered. I mean, come on!!! Get real!! How can those two be equal?? If you don't get it, I guess you just don't get it--some people are willing to make ANY selfish, thoughtless argument at all to rationalize what they want to do just because they want it.[/b]
I've miscarried a very much wanted pregnancy.

I have never had an abortion.

So, maybe you ought to rethink your presumptions about me and my intentions for presenting this perspective.

The question to which my answer mentioned miscarriage/still birth was, "Why not, if God doesn't want us to do it, He can always stop us. Plus, we might be doing people a favor and sending them on to Heaven, and who wouldn't want to be on the fast-track to Heaven."

If god doesn't 'want' a miscarriage, he can always stop it...can't he? Might it be a comfort to a woman who looses a pregnancy to know that her 'baby' has gone back to it's creator? Should a woman who aborts not be able to feel the same comfort, because she deserves some kind of emotional punishment because you disagree with her choice?

Quote:
I am so sick of hearing how traumatic abortion is, and how it's a loss, well, when you kill your own child, of course it's a loss. But don't go comparing yourself to those of us who have REALLY had losses that we did NOTHING to bring about. I've got no sympathy at all--NONE! Sometimes things go wrong in pregnancy, but to compare the loss of a woman who did nothing wrong, with the loss of a woman who brought it all on herself...please spare me![/b]
Isn't it possible for a woman to feel that an abortion is a loss of potential, a loss of a possibility...a delay in motherhood...and to feel sad about the situation/circumstances/experience without agreeing that it's "killing" or that fetus=child?

I don't think *anyone* compared the loss of a miscarriage to the loss of a pregnancy through abortion, but you have to realize that no woman wants to have an abortion. It's not fun or pleasant or something a woman looks forward to or enjoys. In many cases, she did nothing wrong to find herself in that situation...she may have been raped, she may have gotten pregnant while on birth control, etc. **** happens.

Quote:
I used to be pro-choice (you know, 'Keep your laws off my body' and all that crap), and at some point I grew up and re-thought the whole thing. I guess I'll just never understand how a woman can be so selfish as to murder her own flesh and blood. Women are given the blessed responsibility of nurturing and bringing forth life out of our bodies and I don't see how any woman can just dismiss that responsibility by saying a BABY is a like a tumor and needs to be cut out. I just don't get it--I guess I'm just a starry-eyed idealist, but hearing all this selfishness is really sad.[/b]
I think you'd probably have a lot more understanding and compassion if you didn't make such sweeping assumptions about the women who choose to terminate a pregnancy. I don't think I've personally ever encountered someone who chose abortion that referred to the fetus as a 'tumor' that needed to be 'cut out'.

Jen
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  #19  
July 16th, 2006, 10:14 PM
irishxrose
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but an abortion, that a WOMAN chooses cannot even be compared to a miscarriage, which is not her choice. This comparison makes me so furious that I probably will not be able to answer rationally. To compare the accidental loss of a pregnancy to one that a woman takes it upon herself to end is like comparing the death of a child in a car crash to one that is murdered. I mean, come on!!! Get real!! How can those two be equal?? If you don't get it, I guess you just don't get it--some people are willing to make ANY selfish, thoughtless argument at all to rationalize what they want to do just because they want it.

I am so sick of hearing how traumatic abortion is, and how it's a loss, well, when you kill your own child, of course it's a loss. But don't go comparing yourself to those of us who have REALLY had losses that we did NOTHING to bring about. I've got no sympathy at all--NONE! Sometimes things go wrong in pregnancy, but to compare the loss of a woman who did nothing wrong, with the loss of a woman who brought it all on herself...please spare me!

This kind of pointless arguing is the exact reason I usually stay away from abortion threads, and why I won't be coming back to this one. This just takes up too much of my time and energy, for no reason at all. I used to be pro-choice (you know, 'Keep your laws off my body' and all that crap), and at some point I grew up and re-thought the whole thing. I guess I'll just never understand how a woman can be so selfish as to murder her own flesh and blood. Women are given the blessed responsibility of nurturing and bringing forth life out of our bodies and I don't see how any woman can just dismiss that responsibility by saying a BABY is a like a tumor and needs to be cut out. I just don't get it--I guess I'm just a starry-eyed idealist, but hearing all this selfishness is really sad.[/b]
Wow... what an ignorant and hateful post.

You've never known anyone who has gone through an abortion, have you?
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  #20  
July 28th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,672
Quote:
Maybe nature does intend it that it way, but I think God's commandment to not murder is a clear indication that it abortion wrong according to Him. It doesn't say Thou shalt not murder (except in the cases of unwanted pregnancy.).[/b]
You said it! There is no acception.Abortion is murder whether people want to admit it or not.There is no denying it.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but an abortion, that a WOMAN chooses cannot even be compared to a miscarriage, which is not her choice. This comparison makes me so furious that I probably will not be able to answer rationally. To compare the accidental loss of a pregnancy to one that a woman takes it upon herself to end is like comparing the death of a child in a car crash to one that is murdered. I mean, come on!!! Get real!! How can those two be equal?? If you don't get it, I guess you just don't get it--some people are willing to make ANY selfish, thoughtless argument at all to rationalize what they want to do just because they want it.

I am so sick of hearing how traumatic abortion is, and how it's a loss, well, when you kill your own child, of course it's a loss. But don't go comparing yourself to those of us who have REALLY had losses that we did NOTHING to bring about. I've got no sympathy at all--NONE! Sometimes things go wrong in pregnancy, but to compare the loss of a woman who did nothing wrong, with the loss of a woman who brought it all on herself...please spare me!

This kind of pointless arguing is the exact reason I usually stay away from abortion threads, and why I won't be coming back to this one. This just takes up too much of my time and energy, for no reason at all. I used to be pro-choice (you know, 'Keep your laws off my body' and all that crap), and at some point I grew up and re-thought the whole thing. I guess I'll just never understand how a woman can be so selfish as to murder her own flesh and blood. Women are given the blessed responsibility of nurturing and bringing forth life out of our bodies and I don't see how any woman can just dismiss that responsibility by saying a BABY is a like a tumor and needs to be cut out. I just don't get it--I guess I'm just a starry-eyed idealist, but hearing all this selfishness is really sad.[/b]
You are telling the truth and have said what I have been trying to put into words.
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