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  #1  
July 6th, 2006, 07:35 AM
baccalynnwv's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 5,232
I thought this was a good question posted in a nother thread.

Quote:
I understand you POV. Have you ever saw "Signs"? Mel Gibson plays a priest who lost his wife in a horrible accident. After that he strays away from his religion and ultimately belives there is no God. How could a person, like a priest who is so close to Jesus, actually "loose" his religion?[/b]
...........................................

I'm hoping this doesn't merge with my orignial post.

Once in grace always in grace has been discussed here before. I know a lot of people believe that once you commit to Christ, once, then you are saved eternally no matter what you do, say, commit too, etc.

Here is my POV as a Christian. I am not speaking for any other religion:

Someone can let sin back into their life to the point where Jesus can no longer inhabit your "temple". Someone can let sin back into their life, and stop fighting it, stop repenting (turning away from it), and stop listening to the still small voice inside of them. It is a personal choice. It's not God's choice that we leave Him. He is always with us and available to us, but we have to choose to stay close to Him.

It's easier than you think to blame God for all the bad things in your life, even though you have been so close to Him in the past. A person who has been a Christian for 30 years, a preacher, a deacon'. They all still have the choice to turn away from God. Sometimes we get so lost in guilt, in shame, in hurt feelings, in disappointment that it is hard to see past all of it and see God's promises. I know that I at times have pity parties for myself and have to remind myself that this is not my home and that this world stinks, but God's love is always the same and always there for me. While my emotions change, I have a bible full of God's love and promises that do not change. This is when I have to lean on what I know, rather than what I feel..My emotions deceive me sometimes, but God's word is whole and true.

These are the times when it is so important to have Christian friends and family to help hold you up, pray for you, support you, and stand in for your weaknesses. (Reference the thread about "Does going to church make you a better Christian". Church and fellowship with other Christians is important for the moral of God's people.

So, back to the topic of loosing our religion'

I need my bible.....it has all my notes regarding this issue.

I love these verses. Jesus is the vine and Christians are the branches.

John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Abide = Greek = meno
1) to remain, abide

a) in reference to place

1) to sojourn, tarry

2) not to depart

a) to continue to be present

to be held, kept, continually

c) in reference to time

1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure

a) of persons, to survive, live

c) in reference to state or condition

1) to remain as one, not to become another or different

2) to wait for, await one


Abide, in this instance, to continue to be in, to tarry with, to remain as one with Christ. We can CHOOSE not to be with Christ and he certainly is not going to go against our wishes and continue to protect us, guide us, and speak to us, if we wish Him not to.

Each place where it says "if" all through the NT, it is a personal choice, even after we have committed our life to Christ. This commitment is a daily choice, a daily renewal.

ETA: I see it merged with my original question anyway.... LOL.. I don't like that feature.
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<div align="center"></div>

<div align="center">Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6</div>
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  #3  
July 6th, 2006, 09:59 AM
mrobinson
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It was such a good post, I asked the same question on the spirituality board too! (Thanks Becca and Megan!)
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  #4  
July 6th, 2006, 10:37 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,496
I guess I am someone who has lost their religion; however, it has been by choice. I grew up Catholic in a country where Catholic was the official national religion (yeah, ya know...the Lord's Prayer in the DMV kinda thing ). I chose to not be confirmed because I no longer believed the religion. My stances on societal consciousness, heaven and hell, punishment, evolution, etc do not coincide with the Bible in any way shape or form.

Of course, I am not a nun or someone considered to be "so close to God," but I just wanted to point out that not all of those people who seem to be in the "losing their religion" category are there because of some tragic events or questions about "bad things happening."


(and I did for a second think this thread was about become a "loose" religious person ...mental pictures of nuns in tank tops!)
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  #5  
July 6th, 2006, 10:39 AM
mrobinson
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  #6  
July 6th, 2006, 01:05 PM
oicyur's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Posts: 3,979
Quote:
Of course, I am not a nun or someone considered to be "so close to God," but I just wanted to point out that not all of those people who seem to be in the "losing their religion" category are there because of some tragic events or questions about "bad things happening."[/b]
I think that is a great point! People losing their religion isn't always a bad thing. It may just mean that they don't believe in those sort of things anymore and are moving on to find different beliefs. It is sad, though, when someone who was happy and felt close to God has something tragic happen to them and they fall away from God and are no longer happy. That, to me, is a sad example of someone losing their religion no matter what religion they belong to.
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  #7  
July 6th, 2006, 01:47 PM
baccalynnwv's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 5,232
Quote:
(and I did for a second think this thread was about become a "loose" religious person ...mental pictures of nuns in tank tops!)[/b]

I changed the title just for you. I wish someone would have pointed it out earlier while I was still at work! LOL... Took me ten minutes with this slow connection speed!!!

And you are correct. Not every one that has lost religion does so because of some tragic event. Some just simple choose not to follow God, because they don't want to any more.
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<div align="center"></div>

<div align="center">Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6</div>
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  #8  
July 6th, 2006, 03:55 PM
kadydid
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
I thought this was a good question posted in a nother thread.

Quote:

I understand you POV. Have you ever saw "Signs"? Mel Gibson plays a priest who lost his wife in a horrible accident. After that he strays away from his religion and ultimately belives there is no God. How could a person, like a priest who is so close to Jesus, actually "loose" his religion?[/b]
...........................................

I'm hoping this doesn't merge with my orignial post.

Once in grace always in grace has been discussed here before. I know a lot of people believe that once you commit to Christ, once, then you are saved eternally no matter what you do, say, commit too, etc.

Here is my POV as a Christian. I am not speaking for any other religion:

Someone can let sin back into their life to the point where Jesus can no longer inhabit your "temple". Someone can let sin back into their life, and stop fighting it, stop repenting (turning away from it), and stop listening to the still small voice inside of them. It is a personal choice. It's not God's choice that we leave Him. He is always with us and available to us, but we have to choose to stay close to Him.

It's easier than you think to blame God for all the bad things in your life, even though you have been so close to Him in the past. A person who has been a Christian for 30 years, a preacher, a deacon'. They all still have the choice to turn away from God. Sometimes we get so lost in guilt, in shame, in hurt feelings, in disappointment that it is hard to see past all of it and see God's promises. I know that I at times have pity parties for myself and have to remind myself that this is not my home and that this world stinks, but God's love is always the same and always there for me. While my emotions change, I have a bible full of God's love and promises that do not change. This is when I have to lean on what I know, rather than what I feel..My emotions deceive me sometimes, but God's word is whole and true.

These are the times when it is so important to have Christian friends and family to help hold you up, pray for you, support you, and stand in for your weaknesses. (Reference the thread about "Does going to church make you a better Christian". Church and fellowship with other Christians is important for the moral of God's people.

So, back to the topic of loosing our religion'

I need my bible.....it has all my notes regarding this issue.

I love these verses. Jesus is the vine and Christians are the branches.

John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Abide = Greek = meno
1) to remain, abide

a) in reference to place

1) to sojourn, tarry

2) not to depart

a) to continue to be present

to be held, kept, continually

c) in reference to time

1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure

a) of persons, to survive, live

c) in reference to state or condition

1) to remain as one, not to become another or different

2) to wait for, await one


Abide, in this instance, to continue to be in, to tarry with, to remain as one with Christ. We can CHOOSE not to be with Christ and he certainly is not going to go against our wishes and continue to protect us, guide us, and speak to us, if we wish Him not to.

Each place where it says "if" all through the
NT, it is a personal choice, even after we have committed our life to Christ. This commitment is a daily choice, a daily renewal.

ETA: I see it merged with my original question anyway.... LOL.. I don't like that feature.
[/b]

Not to make light of anyone’s beliefs but at some point people couldn’t “choose” to believe in god (or the bible in general) anymore than they could “choose” to believe in Santa Clause again.

For a pastor, a deacon or anyone else who knows the bible it is probably not just going to be some whim to stop believing in that god. I mean wouldn’t they be a smidge worried about committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Rejection of their whole faith at some point would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit the one unforgivable sin. So it wouldn’t be that they “choose” not to believe in god and reject the bible, it would be that they really believed that it wasn’t true. People who were Christians and then walked away from that knowing the bible do not do it lightly, it takes some serious thought. My husband grew up an atheist and odds are will die an atheist. His dad was a non-believer/conformist and so is he. Not to say he didn’t think about it. But he was never taught the other way, and when he did learn about Christianity he did not believe it and it went against every rational thought in his head. Not the same for me, I was afraid to think about it. I wasn’t sure at first, and I thought if I did think about it, bad things would come to me. I do not worry about that now. I have thought this way for a long time, and I have accomplished many goals since I left the church and I did not wither.

AT this point I am just a realist and it has nothing to do with anything else.


FTR I really was NOT trying to make light of anyone’s religions with the Santa Clause comment. I could not think of a better analogy
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  #9  
July 6th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Angelo, Texas
Posts: 3,274
I guess I've kind of seen this in my own life. When my fiance's friend died in a car accident 2 years ago he kind of "lost" his faith for a while. I don't think it was so much that he blamed God, he just didn't understand why God would take such a great person instead of someone he (my fiance) deemed more deserving of death. I know there for a while I would ask him what he believed and he would tell me that he just didn't know. However, I think that that was just a normal reaction for some people when they lose someone they love and care about.

FTR: I'm not implying that anyone who loses someone in their life is going to turn their back on God.
Amanda
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  #10  
July 6th, 2006, 05:07 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 717
I don't think it's so much as "losing" their faith as it's a chance to step back and REALLY re-evaluate why you believe in God and trust in Him. It gives you a chance of reflection, and when (if) you come out of "the losing of faith" you have a stronger connection with God.
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  #11  
July 6th, 2006, 11:00 PM
irishxrose
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Posts: n/a
I lost my "faith" in Christianity eight years ago (yes I was ten ). I read the Bible, and it went against everything I had ever learned, and it disgusted me to see how women were treated, and how men were treated as superior beings. That, and it was insanely contradictory.

But I searched around, and found a religion that rightly suited me three years later. Here I am five years down the road, and am still happily a pagan.
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  #12  
July 7th, 2006, 08:27 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: in my house
Posts: 7,374
I think for many who suffer a great tragedy, that the easiest person to blame is God. One can always find justification for the wars, murders, and deaths until it happens in your own backyard, KWIM? I hope that those who falter can find their way back and find closure and healing. For those that do, I think it only solidifies their faith, to go through a tragedy that makes them question their beliefs, it must take a great amount of strength and faith to come back to it.

FTR-I find the God to santa claus analogy incredibly offensive , and I believe that to be your absolute intention when using it. If you do not wish to offend then do not make a complete mockery of other's religious beliefs, which to most are considered very personal, as well as sacred.
IMO, it is not much different than making fun of someone's baby or child. It is simply rude and offensive and, in this case, completely intentional.
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  #13  
July 7th, 2006, 08:34 AM
kadydid
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
I think for many who suffer a great tragedy, that the easiest person to blame is God. One can always find justification for the wars, murders, and deaths until it happens in your own backyard, KWIM? I hope that those who falter can find their way back and find closure and healing. For those that do, I think it only solidifies their faith, to go through a tragedy that makes them question their beliefs, it must take a great amount of strength and faith to come back to it.

FTR-I find the God to santa claus analogy incredibly offensive , and I believe that to be your absolute intention when using it. If you do not wish to offend then do not make a complete mockery of other's religious beliefs, which to most are considered very personal, as well as sacred.
IMO, it is not much different than making fun of someone's baby or child. It is simply rude and offensive and, in this case, completely intentional.[/b]
Quit trying to cause drama because frankly I am not going to play into it. There was no other analogy I could come up with at the time, and anything that I compared it to would have been making a mockery. So if you want to be offended go right ahead, be my guest.
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  #14  
July 7th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
I think for many who suffer a great tragedy, that the easiest person to blame is God. One can always find justification for the wars, murders, and deaths until it happens in your own backyard, KWIM? I hope that those who falter can find their way back and find closure and healing. For those that do, I think it only solidifies their faith, to go through a tragedy that makes them question their beliefs, it must take a great amount of strength and faith to come back to it.

FTR-I find the God to santa claus analogy incredibly offensive , and I believe that to be your absolute intention when using it. If you do not wish to offend then do not make a complete mockery of other's religious beliefs, which to most are considered very personal, as well as sacred.
IMO, it is not much different than making fun of someone's baby or child. It is simply rude and offensive and, in this case, completely intentional.[/b]
Quit trying to cause drama because frankly I am not going to play into it. There was no other analogy I could come up with at the time, and anything that I compared it to would have been making a mockery. So if you want to be offended go right ahead, be my guest.
[/b]
Then do not compare the center of my Christian belief to a made up children's character. You are entitled to your beliefs or disbeliefs and everyone else is respectful of your POV, you could at least extend to others the same courtesy that you are shown.
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  #15  
July 7th, 2006, 12:44 PM
kadydid
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Quote:
Then do not compare the center of my Christian belief to a made up children's character[/b]

The analogy was based on something you (general you) might have believed in and then you changed in some way and could not believe in it anymore. Not that Jesus is Santa like, they are clearly different. Santa is much more like any number of Pagan gods especially Odin. And by expressing two times that I did not mean it to offend I thought that possibly people might look at it that way instead of jumping the gun that I was comparing the two of them together as if Jesus was cartoonish.


Quote:
You are entitled to your beliefs or disbeliefs and everyone else is respectful of your POV, you could at least extend to others the same courtesy that you are shown.[/b]
Let’s get real here for a moment, this is a thread about people who were serious Christians and then lost their religion. This is a thread about someone like me. Do I take offense to the bible verses that say I can do nothing without Jesus, or that I am somehow going to wither away? (and that people actually believe that) Nope, I debate them, because this is a debate board. People can think what they want, makes no difference. And if I thought that Jesus was cartoonish like Santa I would have said so.

And now I am officially done with the Santa part of the debate.
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  #16  
July 9th, 2006, 01:47 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think for many who suffer a great tragedy, that the easiest person to blame is God. One can always find justification for the wars, murders, and deaths until it happens in your own backyard, KWIM? I hope that those who falter can find their way back and find closure and healing. For those that do, I think it only solidifies their faith, to go through a tragedy that makes them question their beliefs, it must take a great amount of strength and faith to come back to it.

FTR-I find the God to santa claus analogy incredibly offensive , and I believe that to be your absolute intention when using it. If you do not wish to offend then do not make a complete mockery of other's religious beliefs, which to most are considered very personal, as well as sacred.
IMO, it is not much different than making fun of someone's baby or child. It is simply rude and offensive and, in this case, completely intentional.[/b]
Quit trying to cause drama because frankly I am not going to play into it. There was no other analogy I could come up with at the time, and anything that I compared it to would have been making a mockery. So if you want to be offended go right ahead, be my guest.
[/b]
Then do not compare the center of my Christian belief to a made up children's character. You are entitled to your beliefs or disbeliefs and everyone else is respectful of your POV, you could at least extend to others the same courtesy that you are shown.
[/b]
I don't know if anyone cares (probably not) - but I found the relation in it's context to be quite reasonable & on point to topic. And in fact Santa is a real man that gave gifts to orphans & was a saint - so the story has been a bit twisted over time - but he isn't actually a children's character.

I get the point that once you no longer believe in Santa - it isn't a choice you have made - it is becasue of something you believe differently now. If you have been raised in Christian faith & you believe that you have found truth that rings true for you that displaces the previous truths (of Christianity), it isn't so much a choice to disbelieve as it is an awakening to a new truth in that person's perceptions.

As far as my feelings on one loosing their religion - I don't think it is all bad necessarily - it really depends. I can think of a few people that might be better off loosing their religion - but that's a different topic (and related to NO ONE here - that's IRL). Anyway - I suppose to many who know me IRL I would have been to loose my religion - but in my mind I have actually found it. I feel often stiffled by "Christian" ideals of what I feel & believe. When I was angry with God & would share that with others (not in casual conversation - but intimate conversation with friends/family) the response I would ALWAYS get was Ithat needed to go to church. In reality is was the last thing I wanted & I still believe the last thing I needed. I had every right to be angry with God. I did - because I have a relationship with Him & if I weren't ever to get angry with him - I would truly then wonder if we had any basis to call a relatiosnhip at all. I have never known any relationship with anyone to be completely accepting & without true emotion - at least not in my life. So maybe at times I was just stubborn & ornery - that doesn't mean it was unhealthy. I questioned - I complained - I even bawled him out a time or two. Am I sorry - I don't know - not in the sense most would think. I know he gets me - so I am pretty sure we're cool. If anyone were to understand me better than myself, it is Him & if I know why I'm mad - I'm sure he does too.

I don't see myself having any crisis of faith ever again though - becasue I have come out of this with different beliefs & the beliefs I hold now - are more freeing in many ways & allow me to have a different perspective. I don't expect that others share those beliefs - but I know that to them it may look like I have lost faith & I can assure, from the inside it feels exactly the opposite.
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