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If circumcision takes away pleasure?


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  #2  
July 6th, 2006, 07:59 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
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The whys and wherefores are somewhat complex but those who have restored often cited this as something of a worry but actually observed foreskin gave them more control over their ejaculatory reflex, or at least allowed them to predict incoming orgasms to a greater extent. It is believed to be something to do with the increased surface area increasing pleasure and perhaps connected to the gliding motion which gives you another layer of "Feedback" if you see what I mean.

Thus is seems in a rather counter-intuitive fashion foreskin is actually a preventative of premature ejaculation. Despite the increased pleasure and sensitivity.
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  #3  
July 6th, 2006, 08:03 AM
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I cannot speak as an intact male, since that choice was taken from me. Thanks Mom!

Prior to beginning my foreskin restoration, I had absolutely zero control over my orgasm. It came when it wanted and that was that, sometimes 2 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes, or not at all. After a year of restoration, I have a lot more control - I can last longer or shorter, depending on the mood.

So my theory is that experienced intact men would generally suffer less from premature ejaculation, as a properly function organ enables them to control their orgasm a lot better. Can intact or fully restored men here confirm or deny this?
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  #4  
July 6th, 2006, 09:49 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
I cannot speak as an intact male, since that choice was taken from me. Thanks Mom!

Prior to beginning my foreskin restoration, I had absolutely zero control over my orgasm. It came when it wanted and that was that, sometimes 2 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes, or not at all. After a year of restoration, I have a lot more control - I can last longer or shorter, depending on the mood.

So my theory is that experienced intact men would generally suffer less from premature ejaculation, as a properly function organ enables them to control their orgasm a lot better. Can intact or fully restored men here confirm or deny this?[/b]
No complaints from this intact male: I can always see it/me coming and in addition both myself and other intact men can enjoy slower strokes more and thus presumably that leads to lasting longer as well.
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  #5  
July 6th, 2006, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Many men who are circumsized still suffer from premature ejaculation. If they were not circumsized would it be even worse for them since they are more sensitive?[/b]
Actually it is the reverse.. is seems that the normal sensation allows an intact man to KNOW when an impending climax is coming and to compensate for it. Circumcised men are missing this feedback and it leaps on them before they know it is impending.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=99100659

Penile sensitivity in men with premature ejaculation.

Paick JS, Jeong H, Park MS.

Department of Urology, College of Medicine, Seoul National University, Korea.

Premature ejaculation is the most prevalent form of male sexual dysfunction, but its cause has not been well established. Recent studies have indicated that in men with premature ejaculation, penile sensitivity is increased. To investigate whether penile hypersensitivity is a cause of premature ejaculation, we prospectively evaluated the penile sensitivity of 18 patients with a lifelong history of premature ejaculation from the first coital experience and 15 controls, both in the flaccid and erect state. We used an SMV-5 vibrometer (Suzuki-Matsuoka, Teknologue, Tokyo, Japan), which automatically controls stimulatory strength; its precision and reproducibility are thus higher than analogue-type biothesiometers. At the styloid process of the ulna and medial maleolus of the tibia, there was no significant statistical difference in vibratory threshold between the two groups (P > 0.05). Also we did not find significant statistical differences in sensitivity of the glans penis, dorsum of the penile shaft, or frenulum of the penis between the two groups, in either the flaccid or erect state (P > 0.05). According to our results, penile hypersensitivity, as measured by an SMV-5 vibrometer, does not appear to be a major factor contributing to premature ejaculation.

PMID: 9884921 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*********************************************

http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/vissing1/

SCANDANAVIAN JOURNAL OF SEXOLOGY, Volume 2, Number 4: Page 103.
PREMATURE EJACULATION AND CIRCUMCISION

BIOGENIC OR A CULTURAL FACTOR

VISSING M

Premature ejaculation ( PE ) seems to be the most common male sexual dysfunction world-wide. Reports from the Middle East, India and Asia show a much higher incidence of PE than in the western world. In these areas the vast majority of men have had a ritual circumcision. In our clinic we also found a significantly higher incidence of PE in men from these parts of the world.

Is it a biogenic factor due to circumcision or a psychogenic disorder due to cultural differences?
We investigated penile sensitivity with TSA 2001 Thermal Analyzer ( cold / warm and tactile sensation ) in normal men and and with PE who had a ritual circumcision and in non-circumcised men. The literature will be discussed and the results presented.

Correspondence

Institute of clinical sexology
Rigshospitalet
Copenhagen Denmark
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  #6  
July 6th, 2006, 01:42 PM
jakew's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Who already have a problem with premature ejaculation?

Many men who are circumsized still suffer from premature ejaculation. If they were not circumsized would it be even worse for them since they are more sensitive?[/b]
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive. But your question is an interesting one.

The evidence is somewhat conflicting. Let's examine the literature, focusing on studies that *found* results, rather than authors who have speculated about them.

These authors found no difference:
Collins S, Upshaw J, Rutchik S, Ohannessian C, Ortenberg J, Albertsen P. Effects of circumcision on male sexual function: debunking a myth? J Urol. 2002 May; 167(5): 2111-2
Waldinger MD, Quinn P, Dilleen M, Mundayat R, Schweitzer DH, Boolell M. A multinational population survey of intravaginal ejaculation latency time. J Sex Medicine. 2005; 2: 492

While these found less premature ejaculation in circumcised men:
Senkul T, Iseri C, Sen B. et al. Circumcision in adults: effect on sexual function. Urology 2004; 63(1): 155-8.
Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z. Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2004 Jan;10(1):18-9.
Laumann, EO, Masi CM, Zuckerman EW. Circumcision in the United States: prevalence, prophylactic effects, and sexual practice. JAMA 1997; 277(13): 1052-1057
Zhang SJ, Zhao YM, Zheng SG, Xiao HW, He YS. Correlation between premature ejaculation and redundant prepuce. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2006 Mar;12(3):225-7.
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  #7  
July 6th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive.[/b]
The fact that it is possible for them to wear trousers?

Come now Jake, be rational.
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  #8  
July 6th, 2006, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive. But your question is an interesting one.[/b]
Yes, there is, is is called empirical evidence of lost nerves and the logical conclusion of lost sensation.

Quote:
The evidence is somewhat conflicting.

Let's examine the literature, focusing on studies that *found* results, rather than authors who have speculated about them.[/b]
Quote:
These authors found no difference:
Collins S, Upshaw J, Rutchik S, Ohannessian C, Ortenberg J, Albertsen P. Effects of circumcision on male sexual function: debunking a myth? J Urol. 2002 May; 167(5): 2111-2[/b]
Fink did, and as he pointed out Collin's study was too small to be credible.

Quote:
Waldinger MD, Quinn P, Dilleen M, Mundayat R, Schweitzer DH, Boolell M. A multinational population survey of intravaginal ejaculation latency time. J Sex Medicine. 2005; 2: 492[/b]
Ahem,
Comparison of circumcised (N=98) and not-circumcised (N=261) men in countries excluding Turkey resulted in median IELT values of 6.7 minutes (0.7-44.1 minutes) in circumcised compared with 6.0 minutes (0.5-37.4 minutes) in not-circumcised men (not significant).


Quote:
While these found less premature ejaculation in circumcised men:
Senkul T, Iseri C, Sen B. et al. Circumcision in adults: effect on sexual function. Urology 2004; 63(1): 155-8.[/b]
Turkish BS--"However, concerning the cause of that increase, in a Muslim community, the psychological influence of circumcision may be more pronounced than the organic effect.
"The epidermis of the glans penis is keratinized in circumcised males. These changes may result in decreased sensitivity. Masters and Johnson6 have shown that circumcision does not effect sensitivity. However, later, it was speculated that these changes lessen the tactile and erogenous sensitivity of the penis. Fink et al. have also shown that the sensitivity decreases in males who have undergone circumcision in adulthood. We evaluated the sensitivity as a function of the ejaculatory latency and found that in our group the ejaculatory latency time increased significantly after circumcision. This may have been a result of an increase in the subject's self-esteem, becase in the Muslim community, circumcision is traditionally considered a must for manhood."

Still afraid to post links I see, afraid the flaws will be too easily found.. somewhat a bit of intellectual dishonesty?
Well, as with all of your studies, it is a waste of time searching for them and seeing the obvious flaws you hope we do not find.

Quote:
Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z. Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2004 Jan;10(1):18-9.[/b]
Sorry, no data on premature ejaculation.

Quote:
Laumann, EO, Masi CM, Zuckerman EW. Circumcision in the United States: prevalence, prophylactic effects, and sexual practice. JAMA 1997; 277(13): 1052-1057[/b]
Sorry, no data on premature ejaculation.

Quote:
Zhang SJ, Zhao YM, Zheng SG, Xiao HW, He YS. Correlation between premature ejaculation and redundant prepuce. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2006 Mar;12(3):225-7.[/b]

Sorry, no data on premature ejaculation.
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  #9  
July 7th, 2006, 09:59 AM
jakew's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive.[/b]
The fact that it is possible for them to wear trousers?[/b]
Wearing trousers is evidence of greater sensitivity? What do you think circumcised men wear? Miniskirts?
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  #10  
July 7th, 2006, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive.

The fact that it is possible for them to wear trousers?
Wearing trousers is evidence of greater sensitivity? What do you think circumcised men wear? Miniskirts?[/quote]

Lost sensory nerves = lost sensation.. trousers or not.. bottom line!
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  #11  
July 10th, 2006, 10:06 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, there's no evidence that uncircumcised men are more sensitive.[/b]
The fact that it is possible for them to wear trousers?[/b]
Wearing trousers is evidence of greater sensitivity? What do you think circumcised men wear? Miniskirts?
[/b]
Hmm...The "Them" was rather vague there, sorry about that.

My meaning was this: intact men generally do not walk around retracted because friction from their clothes causes them discomfort or pain. That is not a problem since the prepuce covers the glans (as it was intended to, the glans is an internal organ) and thus prevents direct contact being made (and does the same during sex, you still have failed to address the gliding motion btw).

Now with a circumcised man that barrier is obviously unavailable and yet they are able to stroll around unhindered, regardless of the tightness of their trousers.

Some merry miracle or an obvious indication of desensitivity?

Seems fairly clear to me...
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  #12  
July 10th, 2006, 01:56 PM
ryansmama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Who already have a problem with premature ejaculation?[/b]
Did their doctor or parents somehow predict that premature ejaculation might be a problem for them someday? Or was this already diagnosed within the first few days after birth?
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  #14  
July 11th, 2006, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
If I wanted it to be a debate I would of said.... Men who are uncircumsized are more likely to suffer from premature ejaculation because they are more sensitive. However, I don't know if thats true and that is why I didn't say that. I was simply asking about it.[/b]
Well in response to your question: no.

Besides from the reasoning given above I also wonder whether the Italians and French would have obtained such a reputation for being great lovers if that was true...
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  #15  
July 11th, 2006, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
If I wanted it to be a debate I would of said.... Men who are uncircumsized are more likely to suffer from premature ejaculation because they are more sensitive. However, I don't know if thats true and that is why I didn't say that. I was simply asking about it.[/b]
And as shown (without some way-out conditions posted) it actually is circumcised men who suffer more from PE than normal intact men.
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  #16  
July 12th, 2006, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
My meaning was this: intact men generally do not walk around retracted because friction from their clothes causes them discomfort or pain.[/b]
That's an extremely dubious statement on which to base an argument.
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  #17  
July 12th, 2006, 06:40 AM
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That's an extremely dubious statement on which to base an argument.[/b]
Not any more dubious than posting some "butterfly" fantasy to pretend that lost sensory nerves does not equal lost sensation.
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  #18  
July 12th, 2006, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
My meaning was this: intact men generally do not walk around retracted because friction from their clothes causes them discomfort or pain.[/b]
That's an extremely dubious statement on which to base an argument.
[/b]
Wow...That's it?



I feel cheated Jake, I want a proper refutement!
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  #19  
July 12th, 2006, 10:52 AM
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I feel cheated Jake, I want a proper refutement![/b]
Feel cheated? I wonder if that is a motivation?
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  #20  
July 12th, 2006, 11:04 AM
jakew's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My meaning was this: intact men generally do not walk around retracted because friction from their clothes causes them discomfort or pain.[/b]
That's an extremely dubious statement on which to base an argument.
[/b]
Wow...That's it?



I feel cheated Jake, I want a proper refutement!
[/b]
Yes, Revamp, that's it. Like a chain, an argument is only as strong as its weakest link. And that is a really weak link. So you need to either a) strengthen it, or B) accept that the whole argument is extremely weak.
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