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  #1  
July 6th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Below are some questions for those who plan to or have circumcised their infants:


Do you consider the intact genitals unclean?

Why is there no right for boys to decide what their own genitals look like?

Neither you nor your husband/wife own the genitals you plan to destroy part of. Why should either of you get to do so?

Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?

As sexual pleasure is decreased substantially and irreversably by circumcision (see: The Pleasure Thread) how would you console your son if learning this fact disturbed him?

Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?

Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?

Have you viewed footage or photographs of a circumcision in progress, or seen one as an eye witness?

(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?

Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?

Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?

Are you aware of the existance of the frenulum?

Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?

Are you aware of medical circumcision's origins as a masturbatory deterrent?

Are you aware that one of the core claims to circumcision's worth as a routine operation, one that was crucial in its initial popularity, was that it was a preventative of epilepsy?

This considered, is it difficult to accept that an irreversable operation performed upon genitals that causes such massive effects (see: The Pleasure Thread) might not have be the best thing to inflict upon your child?


I really want these responded to so anyone who will answer them please do. Any pro-intact people wishing to add additional questions should feel free but keep them courteous!
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  #2  
July 11th, 2006, 02:56 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Quote:
Below are some questions for those who plan to or have circumcised their infants:


Do you consider the intact genitals unclean?[/b]
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.

Quote:
Why is there no right for boys to decide what their own genitals look like?[/b]
There is a right. But until my sons are of age to make decisions on their own, I make those decisions on their behalf that I believe to be in their best interest.

Quote:
Neither you nor your husband/wife own the genitals you plan to destroy part of. Why should either of you get to do so?[/b]
Because as parents, we have the responsibility and right to make those decisions on behalf of our children we believe to be in their best interest.

Quote:
Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?[/b]
It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.

Quote:
As sexual pleasure is decreased substantially and irreversably by circumcision (see: The Pleasure Thread) how would you console your son if learning this fact disturbed him?[/b]
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.

Quote:
Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?[/b]
That's ridiculous and presumptive.

Quote:
Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?[/b]
I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.

Quote:
Have you viewed footage or photographs of a circumcision in progress, or seen one as an eye witness?[/b]
Yes.

(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Quote:
Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?[/b]
No.

Quote:
Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?[/b]
Just what I have learned from this debate.

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?[/b]
I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the frenulum?[/b]
Yes.

Quote:
Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?[/b]
No.

Quote:
Are you aware of medical circumcision's origins as a masturbatory deterrent?[/b]
Yes.

Quote:
Are you aware that one of the core claims to circumcision's worth as a routine operation, one that was crucial in its initial popularity, was that it was a preventative of epilepsy?[/b]
No.

Quote:
This considered, is it difficult to accept that an irreversable operation performed upon genitals that causes such massive effects (see: The Pleasure Thread) might not have be the best thing to inflict upon your child?[/b]
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.
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  #3  
July 11th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Below are some questions for those who plan to or have circumcised their infants:


Do you consider the intact genitals unclean?[/b]
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.

Quote:
Why is there no right for boys to decide what their own genitals look like?[/b]
There is a right. But until my sons are of age to make decisions on their own, I make those decisions on their behalf that I believe to be in their best interest.

Quote:
Neither you nor your husband/wife own the genitals you plan to destroy part of. Why should either of you get to do so?[/b]
Because as parents, we have the responsibility and right to make those decisions on behalf of our children we believe to be in their best interest.

Quote:
Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?[/b]
It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.

Quote:
As sexual pleasure is decreased substantially and irreversably by circumcision (see: The Pleasure Thread) how would you console your son if learning this fact disturbed him?[/b]
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.

Quote:
Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?[/b]
That's ridiculous and presumptive.

Quote:
Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?[/b]
I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.

Quote:
Have you viewed footage or photographs of a circumcision in progress, or seen one as an eye witness?[/b]
Yes.

(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Quote:
Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?[/b]
No.

Quote:
Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?[/b]
Just what I have learned from this debate.

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?[/b]
I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the frenulum?[/b]
Yes.

Quote:
Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?[/b]
No.

Quote:
Are you aware of medical circumcision's origins as a masturbatory deterrent?[/b]
Yes.

Quote:
Are you aware that one of the core claims to circumcision's worth as a routine operation, one that was crucial in its initial popularity, was that it was a preventative of epilepsy?[/b]
No.

Quote:
This considered, is it difficult to accept that an irreversable operation performed upon genitals that causes such massive effects (see: The Pleasure Thread) might not have be the best thing to inflict upon your child?[/b]
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.
[/b][/quote]
Ditto to the answers! And why should we keep answering the SAME questions?? Why can you not just "accept" what we do as parents?
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  #4  
July 11th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Quote:
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.[/b]
Thanks for this OPINION, but I think one needs to face the facts and reality to have an opinion that others can find acceptable. Opinions based on denial are hardly believable

Quote:
There is a right. But until my sons are of age to make decisions on their own, I make those decisions on their behalf that I believe to be in their best interest.[/b]
Two problems with this--you have to justify WHY this decision can and should be made by you?
And unless you can and do prove that it is indeed in his best interests, your mere belief that it is, is hardly believable


Thanks for this empty (and obvious self-serving) OPINION.. it completely ignores the FACT that having the most sensitive parts of his genitals would lie at the heart of his "REGRET" and not some delusional "mental problems" circumcise rs like to speculate on.

Quote:
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.[/b]
http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/

OR:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/u...circumcision%29

I can give you the information, but I cannot understand it for you.


Quote:
Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?

That's ridiculous and presumptive.[/b]
Hardly ridiculous..do you intend to answer the question?

Quote:
Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?

I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.[/b]
No, we are asking if you are aware of the REAL risks--not some speculaltion and OPINION carefefully crafted by the AAP

Quote:
Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?

No.[/b]
Then when can we expect a rational and logical response when it involves male genitals--ie..a non=hypocritical response

Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?
Quote:
Just what I have learned from this debate.[/b]
That explains a lot--igorance can lead one to a wrong conclusion

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?

I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.[/b]
The continuing saga of the denial of the lost nerves?
Apparently a lot of your opinion on this subject is not based on actual knowledge and facts.

Quote:
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.[/b]
Ah the pattern continues--denial of lost nerves from NTC.

When can we expect you to provide actual scientific evidence to support your assertion that NTC was in the best interest of your son?
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  #5  
July 11th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys.
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  #6  
July 11th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,496
Quote:
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised.[/b]
How in the logical world is a penis that has a part of it cut off considered intact?

Dare I do the pathetic dictionary quote?

1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts

Maybe in an alternate universe the foreskin is not part of the penis?
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  #7  
July 12th, 2006, 06:47 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised.[/b]
How in the logical world is a penis that has a part of it cut off considered intact?

Dare I do the pathetic dictionary quote?

1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts

Maybe in an alternate universe the foreskin is not part of the penis?
[/b][/quote]

What we are witnessing here is an example of cognitive dissonance. Pro-circers have a desperate need to believe that what they are doing is good, so, in their mental world, having all parts is just the same as having carts cut off.
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  #8  
July 12th, 2006, 07:10 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?[/b]
It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.[/b][/quote]


I always love this one. The pro-circer's "You have a mental problem if you don't fully accept and love your American genital mutilation."

I imagine someone in Africa is having a similar thought as she hacks off her daughter's clitoris.

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?[/b]
No.[/b][/quote]

American hypocracy at its finest. Cutting an American baby's genitals is a-ok, because WE do it and WE do it right! Anything else is barbaric and savage!

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?[/b]
Just what I have learned from this debate.

Quote:
Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?[/b]
No.[/b][/quote]

Ignorance is bliss.
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  #9  
July 12th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 558
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Below are some questions for those who plan to or have circumcised their infants:


Do you consider the intact genitals unclean?[/b]
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.

So there is NO benefit to infant circumcision in terms of cleanliness. So far, so good!

Quote:
Why is there no right for boys to decide what their own genitals look like?[/b]
There is a right. But until my sons are of age to make decisions on their own, I make those decisions on their behalf that I believe to be in their best interest.

How can you have it both ways? Either your son has the right to chose his penis style, or you have the right to take the choice away from him. These two options are mutually exclusive. If you take the choice from your son, you obviously do NOT have much respect for HIS opinion of his genitals.

Quote:
Neither you nor your husband/wife own the genitals you plan to destroy part of. Why should either of you get to do so?[/b]
Because as parents, we have the responsibility and right to make those decisions on behalf of our children we believe to be in their best interest.

WHY do you have the "responsibility" to alter a baby's normal, healthy genitals? (Since we don't debate religious circumcision here, we'll leave that out of the equation.) WHY does a baby HAVE to be circumcised shortly after birth? WHY can't the decision be delayed until he can express his own opinion about it?

Quote:
Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?[/b]
It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.

Sounds like "blame the victim" to me. "You don't like what I did to you, so you must have some mental problem completely unrelated to what I did to you". I'll bet parents whose children resent spanked say the same thing.

Quote:
As sexual pleasure is decreased substantially and irreversably by circumcision (see: The Pleasure Thread) how would you console your son if learning this fact disturbed him?[/b]
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.

The question was not whether or not YOU believe there to be a loss (obviously you are highly motivated to believe there was none). The question was this: when your son learns that you cut off a sensitive part of his sex organ, and it bothers him, how will you deal with it? Are you going to tell your son that his feelings are ridiculous, and that his penis is just fine - because you believe that YOURS is just fine? Are you going to tell him to get over it? Are you going to tell him that he has some underlying mental problems that are clouding his understanding of his penis?

Quote:
Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?[/b]
That's ridiculous and presumptive.

While I admit that the question is a bit out there, it isn't completely ridiculous. Your response, however, seems a tad defensive. I wonder why?

Quote:
Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?[/b]
I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.

Come on, Anakin - you've been on debate boards long enough to know that there is a lot more evidence of risk than the AAP is willing to concede! Are you so afraid of learning about the REAL risks of infant circumcision that you have refused to go beyond the AAP statement (knowing that they greatly downplay the risks?)

Quote:
Have you viewed footage or photographs of a circumcision in progress, or seen one as an eye witness?[/b]
Yes.

Did you watch the entire procedure - including the part where the foreskin is separated from the glans, or was that done in another room?

Quote:
Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?[/b]
No.

I'd like some clarification of this, if you don't mind. You're saying that parents of GIRLS do NOT have the right to authorize the removal of a body part analogous to the male prepuce. Why, then, do parents of boys deserve the right to amputate the same part?

Quote:
Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?[/b]
Just what I have learned from this debate.

And how much is that? You've already indicated that your knowledge of risks and complications is limited to the AAP statement. Is the AAP your source for foreskin anatomy as well?

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?[/b]
I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.

At the risk of putting words into your mouth, this sounds to me as though you are not willing to look too hard for evidence that the foreskin provides a useful function - since you have no way of experiencing that function for yourself. I guess ignorance is bliss

Quote:
Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?[/b]
No.

Are you willing to read it?

Quote:
Are you aware of medical circumcision's origins as a masturbatory deterrent?[/b]
Yes.

Quote:
Are you aware that one of the core claims to circumcision's worth as a routine operation, one that was crucial in its initial popularity, was that it was a preventative of epilepsy?[/b]
No.

Are you willing to learn about it? Does it interest you at all that infant circumcision has been reported to have many "medical benefits" which have since been proven untrue? Does it make you at all suspicious that the current "medical benefits" might be equally bogus? Or are all modern doctors completely unbiased, while those previous doctors were quacks with an agenda?

Quote:
This considered, is it difficult to accept that an irreversable operation performed upon genitals that causes such massive effects (see: The Pleasure Thread) might not have be the best thing to inflict upon your child?[/b]
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.
[/b][/quote]

Anakin, knowing that you circumcised for religious reasons does put that statement in a completely different light. I'm curious: do you believe that you would have circumcised your son if you were NOT Jewish? Do you recommend infnat circumcision to your non-Jewish friends?
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  #10  
July 12th, 2006, 07:57 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Quote:
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.

Thanks for this OPINION, but I think one needs to face the facts and reality to have an opinion that others can find acceptable. Opinions based on denial are hardly believable[/b]
Fortunately, whether my opinion is accurate does not require your approval or acceptance.

Quote:
There is a right. But until my sons are of age to make decisions on their own, I make those decisions on their behalf that I believe to be in their best interest.

Two problems with this--you have to justify WHY this decision can and should be made by you?
And unless you can and do prove that it is indeed in his best interests, your mere belief that it is, is hardly believable[/b]
I'm not following your point. You think I have to justify my decision. To whom and for what? And if I don't justify my decision, then what happens? Again, it is fortunate that for my beliefs to be accurate your approval and acceptance is not required.

Quote:
Thanks for this empty (and obvious self-serving) OPINION.. it completely ignores the FACT that having the most sensitive parts of his genitals would lie at the heart of his "REGRET" and not some delusional "mental problems" circumcise rs like to speculate on.[/b]
Your opinion is interesting but lacking in logic and ignorant of the fact that overwhelming majority of circumcised men are at least content if not happy with their circumcision status. So, to reiterate, I find it much more likely that one that was properly circumcised and regrets that circumcision is likely using his circumcision as the scapegoat for other unrelated issues. I would try and help my son deal with any such issues.

Quote:
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/

OR:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/u...circumcision%29

I can give you the information, but I cannot understand it for you.[/b]
Yes, I've seen these opinion pieces and they have all been debunked by Jake and others. Repetition does not create truth.

Quote:
Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?

That's ridiculous and presumptive.

Hardly ridiculous..do you intend to answer the question?[/b]
It is quite ridiculous. But if my son needed money for any legal activity (including lube purchase )that I was not morally opposed to and I had the financial means to help him, then yes, I would gladly give him money.

Quote:
Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?

I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.

No, we are asking if you are aware of the REAL risks--not some speculaltion and OPINION carefefully crafted by the AAP[/b]
Your opinion that people should accept your opinion over the policy statement of the AAP is...interesting...but then again, wild conspiracy theories are always interesting.

Quote:
Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?

No.

Then when can we expect a rational and logical response when it involves male genitals--ie..a non=hypocritical response[/b]
Male genitals and female genitals are different...actually, physically different Any attempt to say that "genitals are genitals" or that "male genitals and female genitals were the same at some point in ebryonic development" is an ignorant or perhaps dishonest attempt to gloss over the obvious difference between men and women, in order to try and prove an incorrect point.

Quote:
Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?

Just what I have learned from this debate.

That explains a lot--igorance can lead one to a wrong conclusion[/b]
Agreed - I accept my shortcomings and to an extent rely on the expertise of doctors, whom I assume have studied the male prepuce prior to preparing the AAP policy statement. I have found that on a wide variety of topics that the best information you can get is usually from experts in a given field as opposed to people on the internet who have convinced themselves that by doing some research to support their agenda they have become more knowledgeable than said experts. But, each to their own I suppose.

Quote:
Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?

I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.

The continuing saga of the denial of the lost nerves?
Apparently a lot of your opinion on this subject is not based on actual knowledge and facts.[/b]
I haven't done my own studies if that's what you're trying to say.

Quote:
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.

Ah the pattern continues--denial of lost nerves from NTC.[/b]
Look at you...you came up with your own acronym. Good for you!

But I'll repeat - I'm not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP; any REAL evidence, and not your OPINION pieces, supporting that the uncircumcised enjoy sex more, have an easier time urinating or an easier time procreating than the circumcised, would help support your cause.

Quote:
When can we expect you to provide actual scientific evidence to support your assertion that NTC was in the best interest of your son?[/b]
It's unlikely I would ever provide such scientific evidence.
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  #11  
July 12th, 2006, 08:02 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised.[/b]
How in the logical world is a penis that has a part of it cut off considered intact?

Dare I do the pathetic dictionary quote?

1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts

Maybe in an alternate universe the foreskin is not part of the penis?
[/b][/quote]

Here's the full definition from the dictionary site I believe you used.

in·tact ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tkt)
adj.
Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
Having all physical parts, especially:
Having the hymen unbroken.
Not castrated.


Not quite sure why you left out the focus of the "having all physical parts" definition (i.e., espiecially, not castrated or having the hymen unbroken).

Let's try it this way.
1) Do you agree that if something is "uninjured" it is "intact" according to the definition you provided?
2) Do you agree that if something is "unimpaired" it is "intact" according to the definition you provided?

The anti-circs are yet to prove that a circumcised penis is injured or impaired (sure they've presented opinions to that affect, but the proof has fallen short). Therefore, if a circumcised penis is not injued it is intact...if a circumcised penis is not impaired, it is intact. Make sense?
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  #12  
July 12th, 2006, 08:09 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Quote:
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised.[/b]
How in the logical world is a penis that has a part of it cut off considered intact?

Dare I do the pathetic dictionary quote?

1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts

Maybe in an alternate universe the foreskin is not part of the penis?
[/b][/quote]

What we are witnessing here is an example of cognitive dissonance. Pro-circers have a desperate need to believe that what they are doing is good, so, in their mental world, having all parts is just the same as having carts cut off.
[/b][/quote]

I feel like "cognitive dissonance" has become this year's "red herring". It feels like in 2005 anti-circs without understanding what a "red herring" is used to deflect from the actual discussion by making false and ridiculous claims of "red herring". In 2006, it feels like anti-circs that have no real understanding of what "cognitive dissonance" is (likely, they have just read a lot of other anti-circers use the phrase and thought it sounded intelligent) are deflecting from the actual discussion by making false claims of "cognitive dissonance".

Just something I've noticed...but please go on with your psychological "analysis" eatspam; it's truly fascinating.
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  #13  
July 12th, 2006, 08:26 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Quote:
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys. [/b]
Interesting question...

Well the proof comes in a few parts: firstly the testimony of those who have restored and unanimously informative of the fact that sensitivity has increased.

Secondly I know a man who was circumcised as an adult (as a consequence of his intact penis being mistreated in case you were going to use that as "Proof" of your own points) who noted a distinct drop in sensitivity.

Furthermore if I leave my own glans unprotected by retracting for extended periods of time sensitivity decreases immensely, considering that circumcised men have theirs exposed permanantly and for years on end rather than just hours that seems adequete proof as far as I am concerned.

In addition what other such area would you expect to retain equal sensitivity? If you left your eyelids rolled open and labia spread would you honestly expect the areas which they surround to remain equally sensitive? Honestly?

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Below are some questions for those who plan to or have circumcised their infants:


Do you consider the intact genitals unclean?[/b]
I don't consider genitals not to be "intact" simply because a boy has been circumcised. But I also do not believe that uncircumcised genitals are unclean as long as the person practices proper hygiene.
[/b][/quote]


I am very glad that you admit they are not unclean.

I wonder who exactly you can argue with my definition though: your son no longer has his whole penis, surely you can admit that?



Quote:
It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.[/b]

Ok well let us just assume that your son's discomfort comes from his knowledge of the permanant loss of the frenulum and inner-preputal nerve endings instead of some deep-seated mental instability, just hypothetically.

What would you say to him then?

Quote:
I'm yet to see any "real" proof that sexual pleasure is decreased at all, let alone decreased substantially by a properly performed circumcision.[/b]
Well I have given you my testimony of the erogenous qualities of that organ, the testimony of a man who was intact and then circumcised and the testimony of men who were intact and then restored. How much more do you need?


And you sort of misunderstood my question, how would you console your son?

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Are you willing to reimburse your son for the costs of all additional artificial lubricants he will require due to you forcing this operation upon him?[/b]
That's ridiculous and presumptive.
[/b][/quote]

Sadly not.

The prepuce acts as a brilliant retainer and provider of lubrication, the gliding motion spreads it smoothly across the glans to make it supple and moist and it is kept on the penis' surface by the foreskin and rendered less likely to evaporate off thanks to the protection provided by the additional coating of skin.

You are displaying a worrying ignorance in the function and purpose of the prepuce...


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Are you aware of all the complications that circumcision risks exposing your son to?[/b]
I have seen the risk-benefit analysis presented by the AAP.
[/b][/quote]

That does not quite answer my question...



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Quote:
Have you viewed footage or photographs of a circumcision in progress, or seen one as an eye witness?[/b]
Yes.
[/b][/quote]

Could you give me some details? Just interested...


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(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?[/b]
You missed out this one.

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Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?[/b]
No.[/b][/quote]

Alright, why not?


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Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?[/b]
Just what I have learned from this debate.
[/b][/quote]

Just speaking solely from logic here and not trying to judge you at all but would you not agree that it was at least a tiny bit unwise to order something you knew nothing of to be destroyed?


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Are you aware of the existance of the gliding motion?[/b]
I am aware of the claims of the gliding motion as being a "function" of the foreskin, but I'm not aware of any evidence of real difference between sexual enjoyment among the circumcised and uncircumcised.
[/b][/quote]


But do you agree that the gliding motion provides pleasure considering that that is what most intact men seem to think on the matter?


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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
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Are you aware of the existance of the frenulum?[/b]
Yes.
[/b][/quote]

Great! For such a lovely organ it really seems to get low publicity... Where you when you made "Your" choice?

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Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?[/b]
No.[/b][/quote]

Pity. I shall try and find you a link.

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Are you aware of medical circumcision's origins as a masturbatory deterrent?[/b]
Yes.[/b][/quote]

Did this bother you when you were making "Your" decision?



Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
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Are you aware that one of the core claims to circumcision's worth as a routine operation, one that was crucial in its initial popularity, was that it was a preventative of epilepsy?[/b]
No.[/b][/quote]

There are plenty of others which are equally absurd...


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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
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This considered, is it difficult to accept that an irreversable operation performed upon genitals that causes such massive effects (see: The Pleasure Thread) might not have be the best thing to inflict upon your child?[/b]
I am not aware of any "massive effects" from IMC, nor is the AAP, but yes, I do believe IMC was in the best interest of my sons.
[/b][/quote]

Well you are an intelligent woman, it is only a matter of time until that alters...
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  #14  
July 12th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Quote:
Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?

It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.


I always love this one. The pro-circer's "You have a mental problem if you don't fully accept and love your American genital mutilation."[/b]
I never said that. If someone has been mutilated (as opposed to properly circumcised) then such mutilation could be the actual cause to a problem. Where did you get the idea of "mutilation" from my post?

Quote:
I imagine someone in Africa is having a similar thought as she hacks off her daughter's clitoris.[/b]
What's your point?

Quote:
(For women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?

No.

American hypocracy at its finest. Cutting an American baby's genitals is a-ok, because WE do it and WE do it right! Anything else is barbaric and savage![/b]
Men have penis.
Women have vagina.

Quote:
Penis is different from vagina. That's not hypocricy, it's science (or porn depending on your point of view).

Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?

Just what I have learned from this debate.

Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?

No.

Ignorance is bliss.[/b]
Pithy.
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  #15  
July 12th, 2006, 08:37 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Quote:
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys. [/b]
I don't know why you keep asking for this proof, as it has been provided many times.
What don't you understand about this:

Lost sensory nerves = lost sensation.

There is NOTHING subjective about this! Either the nerves are there, or they are removed.

And the EVIDENCE for these nerves that are lost from circumcision is the ONLY CONCRETE evidence in the subject of circumcision.

Now if it has not sunk in yet, I do not know what else I can do to help you understand the concept.
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  #16  
July 12th, 2006, 08:39 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Quote:
Ignorance is bliss.[/b]
The other half is:

"denial is divine, and chosen ignorance is a religious experience."
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  #17  
July 12th, 2006, 08:47 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys. [/b]
Interesting...since no one has replied, I can only assume that means that there is no proof that sex while intact is any better than sex while cut.
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  #18  
July 12th, 2006, 10:02 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys. [/b]
I don't know why you keep asking for this proof, as it has been provided many times.
What don't you understand about this:

Lost sensory nerves = lost sensation.

There is NOTHING subjective about this! Either the nerves are there, or they are removed.

And the EVIDENCE for these nerves that are lost from circumcision is the ONLY CONCRETE evidence in the subject of circumcision.

Now if it has not sunk in yet, I do not know what else I can do to help you understand the concept.
[/b][/quote]
I keep asking for proof the same way you keep asking me to justify my "reasons". No difference! And unless you are a male who was once intact and is now circ'd...and had been sexually active before the circumcision...you can't say sex is better. I don't argue that if you lose nerves you lose sensation...but again, I've never heard my husband complain that his penis isn't sensitive. Trust me, sometimes its a bit more sensitive than I'd prefer! If you catch my drift.
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  #19  
July 12th, 2006, 10:05 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
Revamp: Although it is highly doubtful that he shall hate you over it your son might well regret your decision. Is regret really an emotion you want associated with his genitals?

Anakin: It's highly doubtful that my son will regret our decision, but if he did I would question whether his circumcision is the real cause of his "regret" or whether there is some underlying issue that my son needs help with.

eatspam: I always love this one. The pro-circer's "You have a mental problem if you don't fully accept and love your American genital mutilation."

Anakin: I never said that. If someone has been mutilated (as opposed to properly circumcised) then such mutilation could be the actual cause to a problem. Where did you get the idea of "mutilation" from my post?[/b]
We are talking about circumcision, aren't we? Even a "proper" circumcision results in the destruction of the prepuce and in most cases the frenulum. There's also a big, nasty scar that only gets larger as the person ages. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Quote:
eatspam:I imagine someone in Africa is having a similar thought as she hacks off her daughter's clitoris.

Anakin: What's your point?[/b]
Only that your thought process is identical to someone who has circumcised their daughter.

Quote:
RevampFor women) Do you value your own prepuce (the clitoral hood) to such an extent that having it removed would cause you any great distress?

Revamp: Do you believe that parental choice should be respected over the removal of the aforementioned organ from infant girls?

Anakin: No.

eatspam: American hypocracy at its finest. Cutting an American baby's genitals is a-ok, because WE do it and WE do it right! Anything else is barbaric and savage!

Anakin: Men have penis.
Anakin: Women have vagina.

Anakin: Penis is different from vagina. That's not hypocricy, it's science (or porn depending on your point of view).[/b]
Men have genitals. Women have genitals. Men have a prepuce, the foreskin. Women have a prepuce, the clitoral hood. Male circumcision removes the prepuce. Type I female circumcision removes the prepuce. I would advise picking up an anatomy book and reading the WHO information on FGM.

You value the female's right to have her prepuce, the clitoral hood, intact and whole, yet you deny value to the man's right to an intact prepuce. A big fat double standard is what I call it.

Quote:
Revamp:Have you studied the male prepuce in any level of detail at all?

Anakin: Just what I have learned from this debate.

Revamp: Are you aware of the recent BMA (British Medical Association) report which came out firmly against circumcision?

Anakin: No.

eatspam: Ignorance is bliss.

Anakin: Pithy.[/b]
Glad we agree. I do hope you pick up some books and do some reading. It might not be as happy a place as ignorance, but, hey, at least its based in reality.
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  #20  
July 12th, 2006, 10:09 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
Quote:
A question for an intact male...can you prove to me that your penis is more sensitive than my husbands? His is circumcized by the way. And if you can prove it...I'd sure like to know how. Are you in his body? How can you be so sure that what you feel is so much better than what he feels? I really honestly want to know how you can prove you're more sensitive. Isn't that subjective?? And I want substantial proof by the way...since we are always having to prove things to you guys. [/b]
Interesting...since no one has replied, I can only assume that means that there is no proof that sex while intact is any better than sex while cut.
[/b]
Remember, this is America, land of the butchered penis. Most of the posters here are Americans. My mother made the choice because she could - just like you - so I have no idea what it is like to be intact. So you're really only going to get one reply from a man, as only one man who posts on here is intact.

And Revamp has posted many times on this issue, as the only non-circ'd male on this board.

If we're lucky, maybe some women can shed some light on their experienced with cut vs. intact. But then again, it is America, and most women here have never even seen an intact penis.
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