Log In Sign Up

Parents who "own" their son's genitals


Forum: Heated Debates

Notices

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to [email protected].

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Heated Debates LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #1  
July 6th, 2006, 10:24 AM
NaynayPie's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding somewhere in IL
Posts: 986
A common thought among pro-circumcising parents, at least on this board, is "he is MY baby, so circumcising him is MY choice". This can be translated as the boy's genitals belonging to the parents. To the pro-circer's in the group I ask, is there an age when parents no longer 'own' their son's genitals? Or can they do as they please, within legal bounderies (i.e., cosmetic circumision) up until the boy is legally an adult?

~Nay
__________________
<div align="center"><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">[b]I'm A
Natural Birthing, Delayed-Vaxing, Sleep Sharing, Baby Wearing, Tandem Breastfeeding, Cloth Diapering, Never Spanking Mama to two Beautiful, Healthy and Intact Little Babies
</div>
Reply With Quote
  #2  
July 6th, 2006, 01:40 PM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
This one has perplexed me too...

If you heard of a fully grown adult man strapped down to a piece of plastic and forcibly circumcised by order of his parents you would imagine your sympathy would be evoked.

Yet when it happens to a new-born infant it is unacceptable to do otherwise?
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #3  
July 6th, 2006, 01:53 PM
jakew's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,577
I think perhaps you misunderstand these parents. Remember that "my" does not necessarily mean "my property". It may also mean "my responsibility".
Reply With Quote
  #4  
July 6th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Well, I think as long as this child is living under my roof...I have some say in what he does with his genitals. B) I think as a parent I have the right to not allow him to have sex. I think as a parent I have the right not to allow piercings or tatoos (or to allow them, whichever side of the fence I'm on, which isn't important to this particular debate). I think as long as I am considered "responsible" for my child (no I don't own him in the way you mean, but he is my responsibililty) and held liable for his actions...I think I have some say. Just my honest opinion...since you asked.
__________________
~Amber~

Reply With Quote
  #5  
July 6th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Here is something another person posted on another site concerning this same question--reposted with permission...

Quote:
It is child abuse, just because American society has gotten so used to this treatment of our male neonates it is not considered to be. By definition it is also sexual abuse and molestation. The penis has three functions, as a path for eliminating body fluids, procreation and sexual activity. Therefore among the other uses it is a sexual organ. When the boy is strapped down, his foreskin split,then tore loose from the glans, sometimes crushed and always cut off that is molesting a sexual organ on a non consenting child. Absolutely no other definition is applicable. Religious groups for thousands of years have considered it to be a sacrifice and that is exactly what it is, a sacrifice for the victim.

A few years ago a trucker gave a boy a ride from a local truck stop that was hitching a ride to visit his family in Colorado. According to later testimony from the boy the trucker made sexual advances to him soon after they hit the Interstate. Twenty miles down the road he pulled out at a remote seldom used exit serving a rural community. The advances accelerated and the boy resisted making the driver mad. The boy was sixteen and intact. He got a hold of the boys penis, stretched his foreskin way out in front, took his pocket knife and cut it off. Kicked the boy out of his truck and drove away. The boy was standing there, bleeding and in pain when a rancher happened to be going to town, picked him up and took him to the ER.

The boy remembered the name on the side of the truck and the Law was waiting at the Denver terminal to arrest the trucker. A trial followed, he was convicted on several counts including those mentioned above.and sentenced to over ten years.
Now here is my question to those that support and/or advocate RIC. When does removing the foreskin of a non-consenting minor become a felon? Six hours, six days, six weeks, six months, six years or does it have to be sixteen and older? I have given my answer, what is yours and why?[/b]
Reply With Quote
  #6  
July 6th, 2006, 04:14 PM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Quote:
I think perhaps you misunderstand these parents. Remember that "my" does not necessarily mean "my property". It may also mean "my responsibility".[/b]
But circumcising your child (regardless of gender) is clearly a deeply irresponsible thing to do. Basic logic and hordes of research indicate that starkly.
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #7  
July 6th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
I think perhaps you misunderstand these parents. Remember that "my" does not necessarily mean "my property". It may also mean "my responsibility".[/b]
I don't believe that parents have a "responsibility" to force permanent cosmetic genital surgery on their infants. Its a choice based on the parents' sexual preferences regarding the appearance of their child's genitals, not in anyway related to their responsibility for the infant's physical well being. Just look at the circ care board for examples, lots of silliness regarding looking like daddy, being teased, and the catch-all, tradition.

And you can quote all the studies you want, but there are so many other things you could amputate, like breasts, that could potentially save more lives and prevent more disease than the amputation of a foreskin.

I think pro-circing parents tend to look at the foreskin like a blemish on their perfect new car. "I don't want MY perfect new baby to have that!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
July 6th, 2006, 05:09 PM
NaynayPie's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding somewhere in IL
Posts: 986
Quote:
I think perhaps you misunderstand these parents. Remember that "my" does not necessarily mean "my property". It may also mean "my responsibility".[/b]
Yet, it is not the parents responsibility to have any other normal part of their child's body removed. It shouldn't be their responsibility for the male infant's normal foreskin, either.

Thanks for not bothering to answer the question, though. It helps prove my point since you can't think of a reasonable answer, and instead stoop to, as Inowno would say, "Word Games"

~Nay
__________________
<div align="center"><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">[b]I'm A
Natural Birthing, Delayed-Vaxing, Sleep Sharing, Baby Wearing, Tandem Breastfeeding, Cloth Diapering, Never Spanking Mama to two Beautiful, Healthy and Intact Little Babies
</div>
Reply With Quote
  #9  
July 6th, 2006, 05:24 PM
NaynayPie's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding somewhere in IL
Posts: 986
Quote:
Well, I think as long as this child is living under my roof...I have some say in what he does with his genitals. B) I think as a parent I have the right to not allow him to have sex. I think as a parent I have the right not to allow piercings or tatoos (or to allow them, whichever side of the fence I'm on, which isn't important to this particular debate). I think as long as I am considered "responsible" for my child (no I don't own him in the way you mean, but he is my responsibililty) and held liable for his actions...I think I have some say. Just my honest opinion...since you asked.[/b]
Hmm... I think you should allow genital piercings and tattoos if your son wants them. After all, you allowed him to have amputative surgery based on what you and your husband wanted for his genitals.

May I infer from your post that you believe you have the right to make important decisions regarding your son's genitals until whatever age he leaves the house? I can understand not wanting a child (more likely an older teen) to have sex (even though, realistically, it's better to teach safe sex than stress abstinence), or not wanting them to have piercings and tattoos (anything done to the body has the potential to harm the body). Both of those describe situations that could cause potential harm to your son, or another person. That is exactly why they are horrible examples for you to give to try and justify your reasoning for circumcision. His foreskin was a normal and healthy part of his body. It wasn't a ticking bomb waiting to cause him suffering. Not having a baby circumcised is anagolous to not letting him tattoo or pierce his penis. Circumcising him, on the other hand, is not only a similar concept to tattooing, piercing, and other forms of permanent body modification--it IS a type of permanent body modification.

~Nay
__________________
<div align="center"><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">[b]I'm A
Natural Birthing, Delayed-Vaxing, Sleep Sharing, Baby Wearing, Tandem Breastfeeding, Cloth Diapering, Never Spanking Mama to two Beautiful, Healthy and Intact Little Babies
</div>
Reply With Quote
  #10  
July 6th, 2006, 05:26 PM
NaynayPie's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding somewhere in IL
Posts: 986
Quote:
Well, I think as long as this child is living under my roof...I have some say in what he does with his genitals. B) I think as a parent I have the right to not allow him to have sex. I think as a parent I have the right not to allow piercings or tatoos (or to allow them, whichever side of the fence I'm on, which isn't important to this particular debate). I think as long as I am considered "responsible" for my child (no I don't own him in the way you mean, but he is my responsibililty) and held liable for his actions...I think I have some say. Just my honest opinion...since you asked.[/b]
Just curious, but what exactly did you think I meant by 'own'?

~Nay
__________________
<div align="center"><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">[b]I'm A
Natural Birthing, Delayed-Vaxing, Sleep Sharing, Baby Wearing, Tandem Breastfeeding, Cloth Diapering, Never Spanking Mama to two Beautiful, Healthy and Intact Little Babies
</div>
Reply With Quote
  #11  
July 6th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
I think perhaps you misunderstand these parents. Remember that "my" does not necessarily mean "my property". It may also mean "my responsibility".

And that contains the root meaning to act responsibly, and forcefully, senselessly and unnecessarily ampuate a normal, function, healthy, and erogenous part of an infants's genitals can hardly qualify as a RESPONSIBLE action from a rational, logical person.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
July 6th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Well, I think as long as this child is living under my roof...I have some say in what he does with his genitals. B) I think as a parent I have the right to not allow him to have sex. I think as a parent I have the right not to allow piercings or tatoos (or to allow them, whichever side of the fence I'm on, which isn't important to this particular debate). I think as long as I am considered "responsible" for my child (no I don't own him in the way you mean, but he is my responsibililty) and held liable for his actions...I think I have some say. Just my honest opinion...since you asked.

WHY? do you believe this? what do you think gives you the right to slice up his genitals? Sorry, still sounds like the old "my property" complex.

Your are responsible and that also means that you should act responsibly, and slicing up his genitals for no rational reason is hardly acting responsibly!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
July 6th, 2006, 07:48 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 717
When we tell our parents of things they did when we were born/infants that were wrong what do we recieve? Hostility. When they told THEIR parents of things that were done that were now considered "wrong" what did they recieve? Hostility.

Society does not like to "learn" how to do sometihng and accept it and then all of a sudden be told "NO NO NO You are wrong. You are Bad. How could you?" When it's been done before and considered the "right" thing to do.

It's only normal to defend ones parenting choices when in the past it was deemed as "correct, right, healthy etc. etc.." So why the surprise when you recieve such hostile answers?? No one can change their minds overnight, if they ever do.

I have not chosen to circ or not circ. I've yet to make a decision on what I deem is the right thing to do. But I just wanted to put this out there to show that ppl who circumcise and defend themselves aren't doing so "just because"....it's just a natural reaction to defend what we do as parents when it's been seen as the "right" thing to do when WE were all growing up.

I also don't think that circumcising is sexual molestation. It's not done with sexual intent...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
July 7th, 2006, 05:35 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Quote:
When we tell our parents of things they did when we were born/infants that were wrong what do we recieve? Hostility. When they told THEIR parents of things that were done that were now considered "wrong" what did they recieve? Hostility.

Society does not like to "learn" how to do sometihng and accept it and then all of a sudden be told "NO NO NO You are wrong. You are Bad. How could you?" When it's been done before and considered the "right" thing to do.

It's only normal to defend ones parenting choices when in the past it was deemed as "correct, right, healthy etc. etc.." So why the surprise when you recieve such hostile answers?? No one can change their minds overnight, if they ever do.

I have not chosen to circ or not circ. I've yet to make a decision on what I deem is the right thing to do. But I just wanted to put this out there to show that ppl who circumcise and defend themselves aren't doing so "just because"....it's just a natural reaction to defend what we do as parents when it's been seen as the "right" thing to do when WE were all growing up.[/b]
I find it totally understandable, cultural conditioning normally dyes the mind deep and occasionally bleaches it for good.

I actually do change my mind overnight as it happens, I stick to the mantra of "When the facts change I change my opinion" and I rather wish that more others would too.

I can see what you mean totally.

Quote:
I also don't think that circumcising is sexual molestation. It's not done with sexual intent...[/b]
Not usually...

But yes, you are right, in the vast majority of cases at least. But it is a form of sexual mutilation as a sexual organ is what gets mutilated.
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #15  
July 7th, 2006, 05:40 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Oh dear!

This thread appears to be being side-tracked...I really wish that that would happen a little less...

OP response time!

Quote:
Is there an age when parents no longer 'own' their son's genitals?[/b]
They never do!

Every one has one inalienable piece of property, their bodies belong to no one other than themself and never shall and never will.

Unless the sell it on eBay or something.

Quote:
Or can they do as they please, within legal bounderies (i.e., cosmetic circumision) up until the boy is legally an adult?[/b]
Parents do have a responsibility for their child under law as that is what is safest for the child.

If the parents prove themselves to be irresponsible and thus incapable of the task then they may not make such decisions.

Amputating a healthy erogenous zone qualifies them for the aforementioned.
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #16  
July 7th, 2006, 05:54 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: the baby-cutting country
Posts: 136
Quote:
It's only normal to defend ones parenting choices when in the past it was deemed as "correct, right, healthy etc. etc.." So why the surprise when you recieve such hostile answers?? No one can change their minds overnight, if they ever do.[/b]
Unfortunately, people are stubborn and don't like to admit mistakes. Its unfortunate that children have to suffer for it.

Quote:
I have not chosen to circ or not circ. I've yet to make a decision on what I deem is the right thing to do. But I just wanted to put this out there to show that ppl who circumcise and defend themselves aren't doing so "just because"....it's just a natural reaction to defend what we do as parents when it's been seen as the "right" thing to do when WE were all growing up.[/b]
Research well and think about it for a moment... what's the point of performing cosmetic surgery on an infant?

Quote:
I also don't think that circumcising is sexual molestation. It's not done with sexual intent...[/b]
If you believe this, then it might surprise you to learn that circumcision was initially introduced as a cure for masturbation. Prior to the 1870s or so, non-religious circumcision was unheard of in America, but then the Victorian "doctors" decided that self-abuse AKA masturbation was the root of most disease. Female circumcision was done in America, up until 1950s, for the same reason.

I recommend reading these links from the Wikipedia. The articles have references at the bottom for further study:
History of (male) circumcision. Read the whole article, but this section in particular.

Also, Female Genital Cutting . Be sure to read the sections on Clitoridotomy and Clitoridectomy. Note where and why they were done.

Circumcision was and is a sexual surgery. The original reasoning was just buried by "tradition" and doctors looking to make a buck. You American girls are just lucky that it never caught on in a big way for you.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
July 7th, 2006, 06:03 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,330
Quote:
I also don't think that circumcising is sexual molestation. It's not done with sexual intent...[/b]
So intent is the only difference? How does intent alter the outcome, he is still sexually compromised?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
July 7th, 2006, 07:11 AM
Revamp's Avatar Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Troy
Posts: 542
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I also don't think that circumcising is sexual molestation. It's not done with sexual intent...[/b]
So intent is the only difference? How does intent alter the outcome, he is still sexually compromised?
[/b][/quote]

Well molestation has connotations of the perpatrator performing that act in an attempt to acheive sexual gratification. In most cases this is not true of RIC and thus her statement is correct.
__________________
When the cat befriended the mouse, there wasn't a dry eye in the house!

http://www.observer.org.sz/main.asp?id=182...mp;Section=main
Reply With Quote
  #19  
July 7th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
Quote:
Well, I think as long as this child is living under my roof...I have some say in what he does with his genitals. B) I think as a parent I have the right to not allow him to have sex. I think as a parent I have the right not to allow piercings or tatoos (or to allow them, whichever side of the fence I'm on, which isn't important to this particular debate). I think as long as I am considered "responsible" for my child (no I don't own him in the way you mean, but he is my responsibililty) and held liable for his actions...I think I have some say. Just my honest opinion...since you asked.[/b]
Hmm... I think you should allow genital piercings and tattoos if your son wants them. After all, you allowed him to have amputative surgery based on what you and your husband wanted for his genitals.

May I infer from your post that you believe you have the right to make important decisions regarding your son's genitals until whatever age he leaves the house? I can understand not wanting a child (more likely an older teen) to have sex (even though, realistically, it's better to teach safe sex than stress abstinence), or not wanting them to have piercings and tattoos (anything done to the body has the potential to harm the body). Both of those describe situations that could cause potential harm to your son, or another person. That is exactly why they are horrible examples for you to give to try and justify your reasoning for circumcision. His foreskin was a normal and healthy part of his body. It wasn't a ticking bomb waiting to cause him suffering. Not having a baby circumcised is anagolous to not letting him tattoo or pierce his penis. Circumcising him, on the other hand, is not only a similar concept to tattooing, piercing, and other forms of permanent body modification--it IS a type of permanent body modification.

~Nay
[/b]
Actually...I doubt you read my whole post. As I didn't say what I would allow as far as tatoos and piercings were concerened.

Also, I see nothing wrong with stressing abstinence. I am not however dumb enough to think that teenagers won't have an interest in sex. While I will discuss various forms of birth control with my son...I will definitely stress abstinence.
__________________
~Amber~

Reply With Quote
  #20  
July 7th, 2006, 08:20 AM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 558
Amber, if a man has a tattoo, is it OK to tattoo his infant son, so that he and his Daddy match?

Why or why not?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:01 AM.