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  #1  
July 13th, 2006, 11:37 AM
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I find a lot of times people on the debate boards say that certain beliefs are "Christian". Or talk about "Christian" morals.

There are many different Christian churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, United, Lutheran, Catholic, etc) and their teachings vary greatly. A Christian is "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"
And my church doesn't thinking that those teachings include homosexuality is wrong, you should be a virgin until married, etc.

So I guess my debate point is do you think people should use "Christianity" when justifying a belief or should they be more specific?
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  #2  
July 13th, 2006, 12:09 PM
mrobinson
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I find a lot of times people on the debate boards say that certain beliefs are "Christian". Or talk about "Christian" morals.

There are many different Christian churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, United, Lutheran, Catholic, etc) and their teachings vary greatly. A Christian is "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"
And my church doesn't thinking that those teachings include homosexuality is wrong, you should be a virgin until married, etc.

So I guess my debate point is do you think people should use "Christianity" when justifying a belief or should they be more specific?[/b]
I think they should be 100% more specific.. Not everyone thinks the same way about the same religion.

I've even been told about cafetria Christians.. ones who take what they want.. I couldn't believe how many people thought that was ok and not hateful.
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  #3  
July 13th, 2006, 12:15 PM
kadydid
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Ahhh that is very interesting, and considering Jesus never actually spoke out against homosexuality I can see why your church might take that route. Maybe people should start to use what denomination they are when speaking about when describing what type of Christian they are. They do vary greatly.

It is also my opinion that someday the whole gay thing will be looked at differently very much the same way that bible slavery is looked at differently now. I have met a number of Christians who do not think the bible was talking about homosexuality in a bad way, that the bible was against temple prostitution and Sodom and Gomorrah was against them trying to rape or something like that. I don’t remember what exactly their reasoning was.
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  #4  
July 13th, 2006, 12:26 PM
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Ahhh that is very interesting, and considering Jesus never actually spoke out against homosexuality I can see why your church might take that route. Maybe people should start to use what denomination they are when speaking about when describing what type of Christian they are. They do vary greatly.

It is also my opinion that someday the whole gay thing will be looked at differently very much the same way that bible slavery is looked at differently now. I have met a number of Christians who do not think the bible was talking about homosexuality in a bad way, that the bible was against temple prostitution and Sodom and Gomorrah was against them trying to rape or something like that. I don’t remember what exactly their reasoning was.[/b]
I'm not sure but I think it has to do with the fact that there was no actual word for homsexuality in herbrew so you can't be 100% sure that's what they were talking about. In addition A LOT of prostitution invloved men soliciting boys. I dunno...I'd have to look up the churches official reasons...
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  #5  
July 13th, 2006, 12:45 PM
kadydid
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I think they should be 100% more specific.. Not everyone thinks the same way about the same religion.

I've even been told about cafetria Christians.. ones who take what they want.. I couldn't believe how many people thought that was ok and not hateful. [/b]
To be quite honest I do not understand people who are "Christians" but don't actually want to take the rest of the bible. I mean if you think the bible is wrong and hateful, how is Jesus any different? Biblically speaking wouldn't that make them a Lukewarm Christian, and according to the book of revelation that is just as bad as being cold. I remember going to my fundie church and the people were "on fire" so to speak. I might not agree with them or their beliefs but I think they were trying to live their lives according to what their god wanted (living by the whole of the bible) and not by what they wanted in their own minds kwim?

To each their own I guess.....
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  #6  
July 13th, 2006, 12:46 PM
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A bit off topic but here is the United Church's Opinion on homosexuality

Even though there is no record of Jesus having mentioned homosexuality or same-sex relationships, many Christians continue to believe that Jesus himself condemned homosexuality. Jesus did not. Instead he preached a message of radical inclusion, in stark contrast to the strict adherence to purity codes observed by many within his society.

So what does the Bible say about homosexuality? The short answer is, "nothing." The concept of homosexuality as a sexual orientation was unknown in biblical times.

The Bible does make a few explicit references to same-sex genital activity. Several of these texts have been used to assert a biblical condemnation of homosexuals and their relationships.

Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19, cf. Judges 19-21)
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah and a very similar story in Judges, has nothing to do with same-sex affection or sexual intimacy. Rather, it is about infringing ancient Near Eastern hospitality codes, and about gang rape as a violent expression of male dominance. In both stories, women are offered to men "to do with as they please." The women are offered as substitutes for male visitors that townsmen want to violate. In the story from Judges, the two women are gang-raped and murdered.

When later biblical texts refer to "the sin of Sodom," the sins referred to are arrogance, adultery, lies, insincere religious practices, political corruption, oppression of the poor, neglect of orphans and widows, and inhospitality. Homosexuality or same-sex sexual acts are not mentioned.

An Abomination (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13)
Leviticus states, "if a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." The second reference adds, "they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

These acts were considered an abomination (which literally means a practice which prohibits one from entering the precinct of the Jewish temple) for several reasons.

Within the patriarchal culture when a man treated another man "like a woman" he degraded him, because women were considered non-persons. This was reflected in an ancient Near Eastern practice of anal raping of captured male foes as a sign of domination. In patriarchal societies, the worst and most degrading thing a man could do to another man is to use him as a woman might be used.

Secondly, the Hebrew understanding of procreation was that the sperm contained all of life. It entered the female body for incubation only. Thus, the spilling of sperm in coitus interruptus (Genesis 38:1-11), masturbation, or anal intercourse was like abortion or murder.

People who single out these verses to condemn lesbians and gays choose to ignore other prohibitions in the book of Leviticus such as being naked with next of kin (which was a crime); having sex during menstruation; breeding hybrid plants; wearing garments made of more than one type of fibre; eating rabbit, meat with blood or milk, shellfish, or shrimp; bearing tattoos; or males cutting the hair on their temples and trimming their beards.

Male Prostitutes (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Paul's list of "wrongdoers" -- those who "will not inherit the kingdom of God" -- includes male prostitutes. The Greek word, which is translated "Sodomites" or "homosexuals" in some versions of the Bible, refers to adolescent boys who sold sexual favours to older men in Greek towns such as Corinth.

Unnatural Relations (Romans 1:26-27)
In reference to women, Paul writes of women who exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural. The specific acts, which are against nature, are not specified. In the modern period this is often assumed to mean homosexuality. Pre-twentieth century Christians would have interpreted this to mean non-procreative sexual activity, or oral and anal sex.

The passage goes on to condemn men who, "giving up natural intercourse with women were consumed with passion for one another." In Paul's time there was no notion of homosexual orientation so Paul would have assumed that homosexual relations were unnatural for everyone. Gay and lesbian people have noted that a same-sex relationship would be unnatural for (against the nature of) a heterosexual person. But it would be very much according to the nature of a gay or lesbian person.

Paul uses these statements in a debate about the ritual requirements of Jewish law regarding diet and male circumcision. Ironically, these verses, which are so often quoted to judge and condemn homosexuals, were used rhetorically by Paul to denounce judgemental and self-righteous behaviour. Paul chose behaviour that would have been generally condemned in order to make his point. But his point was, "There is no one who is righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:9).
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  #7  
July 13th, 2006, 12:53 PM
kadydid
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FTR I was not talking about people who might interpret things a bit differently in the bible. I was referring to people who literally pick and choose what they want out of the bible.
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  #8  
July 13th, 2006, 12:56 PM
mrobinson
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FTR I was not talking about people who might interpret things a bit differently in the bible. I was referring to people who literally pick and choose what they want out of the bible.[/b]


Like my brother (atheist) who will say "it's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" when he talks about his hate against homosexuals?
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  #9  
July 13th, 2006, 01:05 PM
kadydid
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FTR I was not talking about people who might interpret things a bit differently in the bible. I was referring to people who literally pick and choose what they want out of the bible.[/b]


Like my brother (atheist) who will say "it's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" when he talks about his hate against homosexuals?
[/b]
UGH, I am not calling myself an atheist anymore. I am now going to be a humanist or better yet a pastafarian!!
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  #10  
July 13th, 2006, 01:14 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
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FTR I was not talking about people who might interpret things a bit differently in the bible. I was referring to people who literally pick and choose what they want out of the bible.[/b]


Like my brother (atheist) who will say "it's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" when he talks about his hate against homosexuals?
[/b]
UGH, I am not calling myself an atheist anymore. I am now going to be a humanist or better yet a pastafarian!!
[/b]


There was an awesome person here SMT that was (what I called) humanist.. Everyone disliked debating with him so he doesn't debate much here anymore.. (which sucked for me because he just questioned people's prinicples on things..) I think he's tongue-in-cheek humour wasn't well received. It's too bad because his knowledge of the Christian faith, which he followed for like thirty years was well used. I couldn't understand what they were talking about half the time!
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  #11  
July 13th, 2006, 01:34 PM
kadydid
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Quote:
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kadydid @ Jul 13 2006, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
FTR I was not talking about people who might interpret things a bit differently in the bible. I was referring to people who literally pick and choose what they want out of the bible.[/b]


Like my brother (atheist) who will say "it's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" when he talks about his hate against homosexuals?
[/b]
UGH, I am not calling myself an atheist anymore. I am now going to be a humanist or better yet a pastafarian!!
[/b][/quote]


There was an awesome person here SMT that was (what I called) humanist.. Everyone disliked debating with him so he doesn't debate much here anymore.. (which sucked for me because he just questioned people's prinicples on things..) I think he's tongue-in-cheek humour wasn't well received. It's too bad because his knowledge of the Christian faith, which he followed for like thirty years was well used. I couldn't understand what they were talking about half the time!
[/b][/quote]
I have actually read some of that persons posts and many of his responses sounded like things I might have thought myself. How funny, too bad he left..... Why did people hate debating with him? What’s the point of debating with people you agree with? The world may never know.
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  #12  
July 16th, 2006, 01:37 PM
tonyarn's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I guess I don't believe that everyone who calls themself a Christian is a Christian. I'm not going to point out any specific religions because what would that benefit, but in my belief, if you don't take the whole Bible, you just pick and choose, or if you add to the Bible, those are not Christian religions. I believe homosexuality is wrong because of what I read in Romans (which was quoted above).
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  #13  
July 16th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Tanya G's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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that was very interesting what you said about the united church, i enjoyed reading that, thanks very much for the info.

..................

my personal idea of a Christian is someone who strives to follow in Christs footsteps and do as he did, and someone who follows the bible(whatever interpretation that may be).

The reason I do not consider myself Christian is becuase I dont like the idea that the bible is so open to interpretation. How can one truly know which is the true religion, and if God really is so all forgiving, I wouldnt think he would save only one religion. Thus, whats the point in leading my life in false worship? If God is truly forgiving he will know that I led my life in a good hearted way, that I strived to be a good person and he would understand why one would feel so overwhelmed to pick a religion when their beliefs vary so widely. If he is not forgiving and only really will "save" one religion, well thats not a God I would want to worship anyway!
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  #14  
July 16th, 2006, 09:17 PM
kadydid
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I guess I don't believe that everyone who calls themself a Christian is a Christian. I'm not going to point out any specific religions because what would that benefit, but in my belief, if you don't take the whole Bible, you just pick and choose, or if you add to the Bible, those are not Christian religions. I believe homosexuality is wrong because of what I read in Romans (which was quoted above).[/b]
What about getting remarried? Are people who get remarried Christians? I mean Jesus actually spoke out pretty harshly about getting remarried, are all the people who get remarried not Christians too? (Except of course when adultery was involved, and that is even debated by bible scholars)
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  #15  
July 17th, 2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
I guess I don't believe that everyone who calls themself a Christian is a Christian. I'm not going to point out any specific religions because what would that benefit, but in my belief, if you don't take the whole Bible, you just pick and choose, or if you add to the Bible, those are not Christian religions. I believe homosexuality is wrong because of what I read in Romans (which was quoted above).[/b]
But we're not pretending those passages don't exist in the bible, just interpreting them differently. OR do you think that's the same?
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  #16  
July 23rd, 2006, 01:58 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I agree people should be specific. I was raised Catholic & have always hated the term "Christmas Catholics". People would get annoyed at how full the church would be at Easter & Christmas and I could never understand that & then complain about all those that have "fallen off" only to return on major holidays...how is that not judgemental & assumptive? I have gone to mass on these types of days to appease my mom & Dh has joined me...should we have stayed home? Anyway .... I believe to many degrees we are all constantly picking & choosing things when it comes to spiritual belief. We pick on church over another - we even throw out the occassional teaching that we disagree with it's interpretation, etc.
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