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If it happens in nature, how can it not be natural?


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  #1  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:21 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070521/od_af...qyvDh97MoTMWM0F

Quote:
LONDON (AFP) - A pair of gay flamingos have adopted an abandoned chick, becoming parents after being together for six years, a British conservation organisation said Monday.

Carlos and Fernando had been desperate to start a family, even chasing other flamingos from their nests to take over their eggs at the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust (WWT) in Slimbridge near Bristol.

But their egg-sitting prowess made them the top choice for taking an unhatched egg under their wings when one of the Greater Flamingo nests was abandoned.

The couple, together for six years, can feed chicks by producing milk in their throats.

"Fernando and Carlos are a same sex couple who have been known to steal other flamingos' eggs by chasing them off their nest because they wanted to rear them themselves," said WWT spokeswoman Jane Waghorn.

"They were rather good at sitting on eggs and hatching them so last week, when a nest was abandoned, it seemed like a good idea to make them surrogate parents."

Gay flamingos are not uncommon, she added.

"If there aren't enough females or they don't hit it off with them, they will pair off with other males," she said.[/b]
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  #2  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:29 PM
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I thought you were disagreeing with yourself on the topic of whether or not animals should be indoors when I read the title to this thread.

But that story is interesting.. I don't know what to say about it.
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  #3  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:33 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Things happen all the time that arent natural that happen in nature. Its called mutations. Sure you can call that natural, but in the same way a 2 headed kitten is natural. Like the article said, this happens when there arent enough females around. Lots of things that can cause unnatural occurances in nature. (meaning not the way it was meant to be)
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  #4  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:36 PM
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Abandoning, attacking, and/or eating your own young occurs in nature, too.
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  #5  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:44 PM
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I think that's a sweet story. Well maybe except that they're chasing off the other Flamingo parents. And I agree...people (and animals) find companionship where they can. Nothing "unnatural" or mutant about it.
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  #6  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:50 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
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Hilarious comparisons. Sexuality vs eating habits, yes those are the same thing. .
Quote:
Things happen all the time that arent natural that happen in nature. Its called mutations. Sure you can call that natural, but in the same way a 2 headed kitten is natural. Like the article said, this happens when there arent enough females around. Lots of things that can cause unnatural occurances in nature. (meaning not the way it was meant to be)[/b]
Are you honestly comparing the sexuality of any species to a birth defect?
Quote:
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.


But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.


Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."

On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."


The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.

Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.

Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."

But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.

In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open."[/b]
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...ayanimal_2.html
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  #7  
May 22nd, 2007, 04:55 PM
jhmomofmany's Avatar Look! A Dancing Banana!
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Okay, yeah. It is a "natural" behavior found in animals. So?
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  #8  
May 22nd, 2007, 05:44 PM
KarateMom's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Abandoning, attacking, and/or eating your own young occurs in nature, too.[/b]
HAHAHAHAHAHA! That made me laugh so hard!

Someone can quote all the articles about baboons and flamingoes and penguins and fleas that they want...I personally won't be convinced that homosexuality is "natural".
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  #10  
May 22nd, 2007, 05:54 PM
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I can't believe that anyone can still think that any living creature (animal or human) chooses to be gay. It just happens. It is so sad that people still believe that. Why would anyone choose a lifestyle that draws hatred, misunderstanding, contempt, loneliness, and alienation? I work with elementary school kids currently and I can pick out kids right now who are about 6-7 years old who I have a strong feeling are gay.
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  #12  
May 22nd, 2007, 06:29 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
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Quote:
I can't believe that anyone can still think that any living creature (animal or human) chooses to be gay. It just happens. It is so sad that people still believe that. Why would anyone choose a lifestyle that draws hatred, misunderstanding, contempt, loneliness, and alienation? I work with elementary school kids currently and I can pick out kids right now who are about 6-7 years old who I have a strong feeling are gay.[/b]
I know it is pretty sad that people can be so full of judgment and contempt for another human being based on who they take to bed. For those that say it is not natural, that it is chosen, when did you choose to be straight? I guess someone needs to let these flamingos know that they are an abomination.
Quote:
They're pink...what did you expect? [/b]
LOL
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  #13  
May 22nd, 2007, 06:52 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Things happen all the time that arent natural that happen in nature. Its called mutations. Sure you can call that natural, but in the same way a 2 headed kitten is natural. Like the article said, this happens when there arent enough females around. Lots of things that can cause unnatural occurances in nature. (meaning not the way it was meant to be)[/b]
Are you honestly comparing the sexuality of any species to a birth defect?

[/b][/quote]

yep, I am. I think its not normal, but if someone wants to do it, I'm not going to freak out about it. Its thier life.
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  #14  
May 23rd, 2007, 07:41 AM
Ms.Michelle
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Quote:
LONDON (AFP) - A pair of gay flamingos have adopted an abandoned chick, becoming parents after being together for six years, a British conservation organisation said Monday.

Carlos and Fernando had been desperate to start a family,[/b]
[/b][/quote]
((wiping tears))
I'm sorry.. Ok, put on game face...

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
even chasing other flamingos from their nests to take over their eggs at the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust (WWT) in Slimbridge near Bristol.

But their egg-sitting prowess made them the top choice for taking an unhatched egg under their wings when one of the Greater Flamingo nests was abandoned.

The couple, together for six years, can feed chicks by producing milk in their throats.

"Fernando and Carlos are a same sex couple who have been known to steal other flamingos' eggs by chasing them off their nest because they wanted to rear them themselves," said WWT spokeswoman Jane Waghorn.

"They were rather good at sitting on eggs and hatching them so last week, when a nest was abandoned, it seemed like a good idea to make them surrogate parents."

Gay flamingos are not uncommon, she added.

"If there aren't enough females or they don't hit it off with them, they will pair off with other males," she said.[/b]
[/b][/quote]
that is so sweet!

Quote:
Abandoning, attacking, and/or eating your own young occurs in nature, too.[/b]
As does abortion.

Quote:
I personally won't be convinced that homosexuality is "natural".[/b]
Why deny it. It happens with humans, it happens in nature.. Do you just decide the sun doesn't exist? How you does a person just deny facts like that?

Quote:
They're pink...what did you expect? [/b]
I just got control of myself then I read that!
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  #15  
May 23rd, 2007, 07:50 AM
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It's also natural for the male of many species to mate with as many females as possible. Yet I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't accept such behavior from men.

I have nothing at all against homosexuality, but I don't believe the analogy is correct. There are many natural behaviors that don't translate to every species on the planet.
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  #16  
May 23rd, 2007, 07:52 AM
Ms.Michelle
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Quote:
It's also natural for the male of many species to mate with as many females as possible. Yet I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't accept such behavior from men.

I have nothing at all against homosexuality, but I don't believe the analogy is correct. There are many natural behaviors that don't translate to every species on the planet.[/b]
Denial! Where does this all come from? Why do people accept the world is round?
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  #17  
May 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
Quote:
It's also natural for the male of many species to mate with as many females as possible. Yet I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't accept such behavior from men.

I have nothing at all against homosexuality, but I don't believe the analogy is correct. There are many natural behaviors that don't translate to every species on the planet.[/b]
Denial! Where does this all come from? Why do people accept the world is round?
[/b]
maybe im just slow today but. . . huh?
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  #18  
May 23rd, 2007, 08:09 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
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Quote:
I work with elementary school kids currently and I can pick out kids right now who are about 6-7 years old who I have a strong feeling are gay.[/b]
That's sad that you would already think such a young child is gay. I grew up with two families with lots of boys (4 in one, 3 in the other). One of the boys in the family with 4 is about 5 years younger than me. He has always been effeminate as long as I can remember. Because of this the other 6 boys have always made fun of him and teased him and told him he's gay and stuff like that. Well, guess what? He decided he was gay. He said that since he was told so often he was gay he must be. Of course he doesn't want to have a relationship with a guy, but he feels like he can't have a relationship with a woman because "everyone" thinks he's gay. Let's just say his brothers and friends really wish they hadn't pegged him as gay as such as young kid. Maybe things would be easier and less confusing for him today. Amazing what words or perception of others can do to a kid.

An odd thought I just had... The article says flamingoes will pair up male to male when there are not enough females around (which, to me, indicates a need for companionship being natural more than anything, but that's a whole other issue). In China and some other countries the "worth" of a baby boy is so much greater than a baby girl and due to population controls and other issues the number of young men today is MUCH higher than the number of young women. So, would that mean in a country like China that homosexuality should be much more common than, say, the US where the male to female ratio is more even?

By the way, I do know someone who chose to be a lesbian because it sounded cool. In the end she ended up in a poly relationship with a man and a perfectly straight female. But for a while she lived as a lesbian despite the stigma and hatred and all that. So, yes, IME some people absolutely do choose it.
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  #19  
May 23rd, 2007, 08:17 AM
Ms.Michelle
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's also natural for the male of many species to mate with as many females as possible. Yet I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't accept such behavior from men.

I have nothing at all against homosexuality, but I don't believe the analogy is correct. There are many natural behaviors that don't translate to every species on the planet.[/b]
Denial! Where does this all come from? Why do people accept the world is round?
[/b]
maybe im just slow today but. . . huh?
[/b]
If people just want to disregard facts then they are in denial.
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  #20  
May 23rd, 2007, 08:39 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TigerMom @ May 23 2007, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>It's also natural for the male of many species to mate with as many females as possible. Yet I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't accept such behavior from men.

I have nothing at all against homosexuality, but I don't believe the analogy is correct. There are many natural behaviors that don't translate to every species on the planet.[/b]
Denial! Where does this all come from? Why do people accept the world is round?
[/b]
maybe im just slow today but. . . huh?
[/b][/quote]
If people just want to disregard facts then they are in denial.
[/b][/quote]

I see what you mean by denial, but what does that have to do with what does that have to do with what you quoted on? Not trying to be fasicious (spelling ) but what she said is true. Just becuase something happens with one speicies doesnt mean its not right with all species. I mean we dont eat our spouse after mating do we? (black widow) Thats natural for them, but not for humans.
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